HHMI Newsgroup Archives
From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 1997 12:23 AM
To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup
Subject: Re: Is Yeshua Messiah or G-d ?
From: brazz@one.net
Subject: Re: Is Yeshua Messiah or G-d ?
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Eddie,
A couple of other points might add to the mountain of evidence you've already
provided for the deity of Messiah Yeshua.
John 5: 16-18: Yeshua, in calling Elohim his father, incites the wrath of the
Jews who have already rejected him, for in this claim he has also claimed
equality with God. The Western mind often understands the son to be inferior to
the father or forever subordinate to the father, but (as you stated regarding
the relationship with authority) to the Jew at the time, to be a (first-born)
son was to be equal with the father, for the son eventually inherits the wealth,
power, authority, and blessing of the father. Thus, when Yeshua claims to be
God's son, he claims also to be God himself.
Matthew 11:12 (NIV) "From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom
has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it." Not a perfect
translation (or interpretation), but closest to David Bivin's insightful
teaching of Yeshua's allusion in this passage to Micah 2:12-13, and to a
Rabbinical interpretation of the Micah passage which was apparently well-known
in Yeshua's day, that puts Eliyahu (Elijah) as the poretz, or breach-maker, and
the LORD as king and Messiah. Yeshua here points to Yochanan as Eliyahu, and
implies that he himself is the LORD!
There is still a wealth of Scriptures which easily establish that Yeshua is
Elohim in the flesh, which neither of us have covered to this point. However,
I thought you and the other rooters might find these to be helpful.
Jeff Bradshaw
brazz@one.net
----------
From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 1997 12:31 AM
To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup
Subject: Re: Is Yeshua Messiah or G-d ?
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
From: Ben Goodwyn <bengood@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Is Yeshua Messiah or G-d ?
At 12:23 AM 6/12/97 +0000, you wrote:
>From: brazz@one.net
>Subject: Re: Is Yeshua Messiah or G-d ?
>To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
>
>
>Eddie,
>
>A couple of other points might add to the mountain of evidence you've
already
>provided for the deity of Messiah Yeshua.
>==============================================================================
===
>
Eddie:
Before the discussion is entered, we need to know the definition of God(the
father),the definition of Messiah and clarify what one means by god the
father, god the son and also the son of god and the son of man.
In the gospel of John the scripture says, "In the beginning(of Time) was the
word(Torah?) and the word was with God and the word was
God(Torah=God),....14 and the word(Torah) became flesh(a man) and dwelt
among us(mankind).
Rather confusing unless there are definitions to guide us.
peace-------------------------------------ben goodwyn
From Eddie:
**************
The SHEMA (Deut 6:4, Mark 12:28-29) declares that God is
ECHAD (which is a compound unity).
God the Father is the WILL.
God the Son is the WORD
God the Holy Spirit is the POWER.
God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit are TITLES
to express the RELATIONSHIP of AUTHORITY of the COMPOUND
UNITY of God. There are not three Gods. There is ONE GOD who is a
COMPOUND UNITY.
The WILL of God is God.
The WORD of God is God.
The POWER of God is God.
You cannot separate the WILL from the WORD from the POWER.
The Will is fulfilled by the WORD according to the POWER.
In Genesis 1:1-3
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth
was without form and void: and darkness was upon the face of the
deep. And the SPIRIT OF GOD MOVED (the POWER) upon the face of
the waters. And God (the WILL) said (spoke the WORD), Let there be
light: and there was light"
The WILL wanted to create a heaven and earth. So the WILL
spoke the WORD and it was done according to the POWER.
It was the WILL of God that man be redeemed from his sins so
He sent His WORD into the earth and the WORD was made FLESH
and dwelt among men (John 1:14).
Yeshua (the WORD) said, I only do the WILL of the Father who
sent me (John 6:38). The WORD will ALWAYS obey the WILL. The WORD
is a SERVANT to the WILL. But the WILL and WORD are ONE and are in
agreement. (John 10:30). The WORD needs to be empowered by the POWER
to do the WILL (Luke 4:1).
The TITLES "Father" and "Son" describe a RELATIONSHIP of
AUTHORITY in the Godhead.
In John 1:1 it is written:
"In the beginning was the WORD (Torah) and the WORD (Torah) was WITH
God and the WORD (Torah) was God"
The TORAH is the WORD of God (Isaiah 2:3). Since God
always existed and he had no beginning, the WILL of God ALWAYS
existed and the WORD of God always existed.
In Proverbs 30:4 it is written:
"Who has ascended up into heaven or descended? Who has gathered th
wind in the fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has
established all the ends of the earth? What is HIS NAME and what is
his SON'S NAME, if you can tell ??"
Friends, GOD is our salvation (Yeshua). God's WORD
(Yeshua) became FLESH. GOD spoke by His WORD to the prophets that
the Messiah would someday come to the earth. Yeshua was born of a
virgin. Yeshua was sinless. Yeshua is GOD manifested in the flesh.
In I John 4:2-3 it is written:
"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that
Jesus Christ is come in the FLESH is of God. And every spirit that
confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the FLESH is not of God:
and this is the SPIRIT of ANTICHRIST whereof ye have heard that it
should come and even now already is it in the world"
Those who proclaim that Jesus was NOT God manifested in the
flesh is professing by the spirit of Anti-Christ and the spirit of
deception.
*****************************************************************************
From: "David Lyon" <dlyon@photon.hotwire.net.au>
To: <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Is Yeshua Messiah or G-d ?
Eddie,
When I originally asked this question, I honestly thought it was a
pretty sensible one. I don't come from a religious background, so I
don't know all the christian dogma.
I'm now in a situation where I'm talking with many Jewish and must be
able to clearly state who Yeshua actually is without making a single
slip-up. It must be a Torah based answer.
My original acceptance of salvation, was on John 3:16 "For G-d so
loved the world that he sent his only begotten son, that whoever
believes on him may not perish but have eternal life".
This is what I've always believed, just as it's written.
There is no room in that passage to say that Jesus is both the one
sending and the one sent.
From Eddie:
***************
God the Father and God the Son are TITLES to show the
RELATIONSHIP of AUTHORITY within the GODHEAD.
The WILL (God the Father) sent HIS WORD (God the Son).
When you want your child to do something (your WILL) you
"SEND" your WORDS to accomplish what is your WILL. The WORD is
SENT to accomplish your WILL. Your WORD is a servant to your WILL.
Your WORD and your WILL are in agreement.
So, the WILL sent HIS WORD into the earth and the WORD became
flesh to do the WILL by the POWER. The WILL is not a separate being
from the WORD. The WILL and the WORD are EACH CHARACTERISTICS and
ATTRIBUTES of the ONE GOD.
From David:
*************
For example: in John 5:19 Yeshua says:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord,
but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever he does, that the
Son does likewise"
From Eddie:
**************
The WORD is obeying the WILL. They are ONE in agreement and
purpose but the WORD is a servant to the WILL. The WORD is under the
authority of the WILL. By being in agreement, the WORD and the WILL
are ONE and the SAME.
From David:
**************
I have no difficulty in accepting that Jesus is the Son of G-d, making
him also a god like his Father. With the rest of us being just mortal
men and woman. In fact I am really happy with that view.
It just seems to me that the statement 'Jesus is G-d' implies that
Jesus replaces the Father, the Ancient One, the G-d of Isreal. When
what it is actually trying to say is that the G-d the Father, created
the Son, so that he could share everything He has with his Son, his
Sons bride, and his Sons friends.
Regards
David
From Eddie:
**************
"Father" and "Son" are TITLES to describe AUTHORITY in the
Godhead. They are not separate beings. The WORD does not replace the
WILL. But the WORD serves the Will and they are ONE because they are
in agreement in unity and purpose.
In Revelation 21:7 it is written:
"He that overcometh shall inherit all things: and I will be his God
and he shall be my son"
Now if a PHYSICAL woman on this earth is a believer in
Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah and she is an overcomer, this verse says that
she will by the "son" of God. Does this mean that she becomes a male?
No, this describes a RELATIONSHIP of OBEDIENCE to God in doing His
Will.
*************************************************************************
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