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From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 1997 1:55 AM To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup Subject: RE: Chanukah rather than Christmas / Golden Calf
From: "Valerie Widgren" To: "'heb_roots_chr@geocities.com'" <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com> Subject: RE: Chanukah rather than Christmas / Golden Calf
Eddie:
My 2 cents worth. Our Messiah is returning for a Bride who is without spot, wrinkle, or blemish. She knows the difference between clean and unclean, and worships her beloved in spirit and in truth. As far as trying to justify having an Asher pole and calling it "clean," G-d hit me right between the eyes with Jeremiah 10:1-4:
Here what the L-rd says to you, O house of Israel. This is what the L-rd says: Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them. For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter.
HELLO! This directive leaves no room for interpretation. As King Solomon said, there is nothing new under the sun. Once an Asher pole, always an Asher pole--no matter what kind of "righteousness" you try to impart, it is unclean and it is not G-d's way.
Last year was the first year I did not celebrate Christmas, and what a blessing. I cleaned my house of about $3,000 of exquisite Christmas paraphernalia. Oh, well. His feasts and days are perfect. There is and unexplainable peace and joy that result in observing His days in accordance with His ways.
Once G-d circumcises your heart and shows you what is pagan (unclean), letting go is still a choice that has to be made. With the help of the Holy Spirit, it becomes easy when character and desires of our beloved are known through His word.
V Widgren
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From: Susan Woolley Subject: Re: Chanukah rather than Christmas / Golden Calf To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Shalom Eddie, Lorah and fellow Rooters!
Well...I see we're still on the debate re. Biblical feasts vs. "Church" Festivals (or Christianised pagan feasts, if you like). I know we've discussed this ad infinitum, but can I, yet again, add my fourpennyworth? Now for my fourpennyworth!
A little while ago, relating to this debate, I wrote of my experiences of one Christmas when I was in Bavaria, Germany. I was feeling pretty jaded that year, and the L-rd spoke to me and really blessed me thru the German-style Christmas (which is far less commercialised than in Britain or the USA). However, I was NOT proposing Christmas as viable option to Chanukah. That year was just a special occasion - a one-off. I've been giving this subject some serious thought and prayer, trying to set aside my cultural upbringing, trying to view it with fresh eyes. I've read bits of Eddie's book on-line on the Biblical Feasts, and have liked what I've read. And being a Bible College graduate, I recognize the scriptural premises for what Eddie writes, even if I haven't quite understood everything yet! I come from an Anglo-Catholic background. This movement began in England the middle of the last century. It's a mix of High Church Anglicanism and Roman Catholicism. Anglo-Catholics don't normally worship statues (dead saints) and the Virgin Mary, but any R/C would feel comfortable in an Anglo-Catholic church service, because many of the R/C church feast days are included in the Anglo-Catholic church calendar. I became a Christian in my mid-20s, when I decided to get confirmed. After that, the L-rd had to clear out a lot of dross, but then in 1990, He sent me off to Bible College. It was small, but very good - evangelical, non-denominational, with sound teaching (on the whole). BUT, we still celebrated Easter and Christmas like all good Western Christians in true Western-style, albeit with a strong evangelistic slant. However, there was one among the student body who flatly refused to celebrate either, and distanced himself from the fun and games. Peter had been a Christian for just about 3 years, and had steeped himself in the Bible in a very short time. (He'd also given himself a very Jewish name by deed poll.) Christmas and Easter weren't biblical, he said, and tried to show us why. I'm sorry to say, the rst of us didn't treat Peter very kindly. We came out with almost the same justifications as Lorah. Basically, despite being good evangelicals, well-versed in the Bible, we saw nothing wrong with Christianising pagan festivals, which at heart we knew was the case. However, my conscience began to prick! And I began to give some serious thought to Peter's convictions. Would it surprise anyone, if I said that every Christmas after that I became more and more cheesed off with it?! The same thing has been happening with Easter, especially since joining this newsgroup.
I believe now that we CANNOT and MUST NOT Christianise something which at its roots is pagan, therefore it is NOT of G-d, it is NOT edifying, it is NOT holy. Of course, as Eddie points out, celebrating Christmas and Easter in the way most evangelicals do - especially using them as a means to spread the Gospel - is not going to affect our salvation, BUT it will affect our position in the Kingdom, AND it does affect our spiritual growth. I can verify the latter from personal experience. Of course, it has taken time for me to hear Ruach Hakodesh properly, and to take heed. He has had to clear away a lot of dross first! Please, Lorah (and others of the same thinking), may I encourage you to set aside your Western cultural upbringing. Scour the Word of G-d, especially the passages pertaining to the Biblical feasts, read with an open mind and heart, read Eddie's book ( and any others on the same subject) - AND PRAY!! Returning to the Hebraic roots of our faith has meant for me a much closer walk with Yeshua Mashiach. If is means setting aside 2000 years of traditional thinking, then so be it. I am glad I went to Bible College, because I received excellent teaching and really got to know the Bible. In a safe environment, I managed to throw out a lot of the false teaching/ ideas I'd received over the years. I would not throw out any of the good basic evangelical doctrines I was taught, BUT I'm very much open to learning more. I want to know ALL the Truth!
Sha'ul commended his fellow disciples of Yeshua "to throw off all that hinders". I'm throwing off celebrating Christianised pagan feasts, because they're hindering me in following the Way, the Truth and the Life.
Yours very much in Yeshua,
Baruch HaShem, Susan.
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From: Ken Jeffries To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Subject: Re: Chanukah rather than Christmas / Golden Calf -Reply
Shalom Eddie, Lorah, Bar and Bat Zion
Baruch am shem Adonai
I have some sympathy with Lorah because when you have been brought up to celebrate the gentile dates for Christmas and Easter it is difficult to start rethinking the process, sometimes I slip up when I am praying to Yahweh and Y'shua, I use the Greek words, we have been programmed to do certain things and it is hard to stop doing certain thing.
From Eddie: **************
Whether you say, Jesus or Yeshua, G-d will answer your prayer just the same.
From Ken: *************
I have come to a point whereby I want to celebrate the festivals as they should be celebrated and on the dates they should be celebrated.
I believe that we are branches grafted into the tree, and we should be doing exactly what G-d tells us, He asked us to obey a set of rules, the Ten Commandments and He laid down festivals to be celebrated and enjoyed.
We have a loving and caring Abba, we would not disobey our fleshly fathers so why disobey our Heavenly Father. We the gentiles have a lot to answer for in the way we took the Faith and twisted it.
G-d will punish us if we do not celebrate the Festivals as they should be celebrated, why obey the Commandments if you not going to obey the true festival dates, we might as well disobey Him all together and live a life under sin.
I hope I have not offended anyone by my comments
B'shem Yeshua
Ken
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To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com From: Maranatha Subject: Re: Chanukah rather than Christmas
Eddie,
As a gentile whose only background in Judiasm is 40 years of Old Testament studies with a Christian perspective, I'm acquiring a massive cerebral overload trying to grasp all the new ideas I've been exposed to through your websight and this listserve. I am currently studying your "Seven Festivals" book with a group of other Christians who know as little about our Hebrew roots as I do.
My question today has to do with the recent discussion concerning giving up Christmas and celebraating Chanukah instead. Since Chanukah is not a Biblical holiday and seems to have nothing to do with Christ's birthday, why should non jewish Christians celebrate it? If there is a great likelihood that Christ was born during Tabernacles, shouldn't that be the time for Christians to celebrate His birth, rather than Chanukah?
Thank you for providing access to a wonderful window on true Christianity.
Maranatha, Bob
From Eddie: **************
Since Yeshua/Jesus was born during the season of Sukkot (the Feast of Tabernacles), if we want to celebrate His birth, shouldn't we do it when He was born? If we want to celebrate religious holiday unto G-d, shouldn't we celebrate the holidays that HE gave ??
In Leviticus 23:2, 4 it is written:
"Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the FEASTS OF THE LORD which YOU shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even THESE are MY FEASTS ... these are the FEASTS OF THE LORD even holy convocations which ye shall proclaim in their seasons"
In Zechariah 14:16-18, G-d will REQUIRE ALL NATIONS to keep the Feast of Tabernacles during the Messianic age. He will PUNISH those who don't keep the Festival. God will NOT PUNISH those who fail to keep Christmas or Easter but He WILL PUNISH those who fail to keep the Biblical Festival of Tabernacles that HE gave. In Zech 14:16-18 it is written:
"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts and to KEEP the FEAST of TABERNACLES. And it shall be, that whoso will NOT come up of ALL THE FAMILIES of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upn them shall be NO RAIN. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain, there shall be the PLAGUE wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles"
Here, G-d's feelings about the Feast of Tabernacles is quite clear.
In Ezekiel 40-48, it describes the Temple during the Messianic Age and the worship that will be going on in the Temple at this time.
In Ezek 45:21 is the feast of Passover and Unleavened Bread In Ezek 45:25, the feast of tabernacles is being kept
If Christmas and Easter will NOT be kept during the Messianic Age, then they must NOT be G-d ordained holidays. If Passover and Tabernacles and the other Festivals ARE being kept then they MUST be important as holidays to G-d. If they are important holidays to G-d, shouldn't they be important to us?
In John 14:15, Yeshua/Jesus said:
"If you LOVE me KEEP my COMMANDMENTS .."
In I John 5:3, it is written:
"For THIS is the LOVE of G-d that we KEEP his COMMANDMENTS and his commandments are NOT grievous (burdensome):
Keeping the Biblical Festivals is a LOVE issue NOT a salvation issue. Keeping the commandments will NOT save you. But, if you LOVE G-d, you will keep His commandments. To me, this is not complicated. You seek the heart of G-d. Once He shows you His heart, you obey. If you LOVE, you obey. If you WANT to please HIM, you SEEK to KNOW what pleases HIM. When you find out, you OBEY.
G-d is a HOLY G-d. Let me say that again. G-d is a HOLY G-d. A Holy G-d wants to be worshipped in SPIRIT (that is the heart) and in TRUTH (that is your mind according to what you know and understand to be true). In John 4:24 it is written:
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him MUST worship him in spirit and in truth"
What is truth?
In Psalm 119:105 it is written:
"Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness and thy TORAH is TRUTH"
In John 8:31-32 it is written:
"Then said Jesus to those Jews WHICH BELIEVED on him, if you continue in my word, then you are my disciples (students) indeed. And you shall know the TRUTH and the truth shall make you free"
Notice, Yeshua/Jesus was speaking to THOSE THAT BELIEVED and told them to CONTINUE IN TRUTH. Obviously, this had nothing to do that they might believe because they already believed. But, it was about being a DISCIPLE (student) and by SEEKING the TRUTH and DOING the TRUTH, you are SET FREE.
So, should a Bible believing person who LOVES G-d SEEK to do what HE wants us to do? When we KNOW the truth, doesn't He want us to obey the truth ???
So, what is truth? Dec 25 (the birthday of the sun god) or the Biblical Festivals ??? Did G-d CONDEMN the children of Israel when they mixed paganism with worship of HIM ??? G-d is a HOLY G-d and He doesn't want worship to be directed to Him that came from paganism. He does want worship to be directed to Him that came from Him.
As I have shared on this newsgroup in the past, for most of my Christian life, I celebrated Christmas and Easter. To me, it meant the birthday of my Savior and the Resurrection of my Messiah. During this time, I was 100% ignorant of the pagan origin of Christmas and Easter. Then, G-d began to teach me the RICHNESS of HIS Festivals. I discovered that HE gave them to teach about His redemptive plan for me. I discovered that HE gave them to teach about my personal relationship with Him. AFTER He did this, what was I supposed to tell Him? That this was meaningless? That this was nice that He ordained His festivals and gave them to us to understand these things but being a believer in HIM and that HE was my G-d that they had no meaning to me? How can I tell G-d that HIS festivals are meaningless to me and that I wanted to celebrate His birthday on a day that was ordained by man (Dec 25th) and express my love to Him THROUGH a holiday of pagan origin when HE gave me HIS Festivals to celebrate HIM? I had to face reality and admit that G-d is a Holy G-d. I had to face reality and admit that what G-d gave me was better for me than what man gave me. I had to face reality and admit that G-d took the time and effort to teach me these things about His festivals for a PURPOSE and that He wanted me to begin to keep them. So, I yielded my heart and life to G-d in this area and purposed to teach other believers in LOVE to do the same thing.
What about Chanukah? Does Chanukah teach us a VALUABLE ETERNAL spiritual lesson for us today? During the days of the Maccabees, the Jewish people were SATURATED with Greek culture and influence. TODAY, we are SATURATED with this same Greco-Roman culture. It is in our religious system. It is in our financial system. It is in our political system. It shapes the values and morals of our society and EVERY Christian is influenced by it. But, G-d told us that He wanted us to be SEPARATE from that culture. G-d told the children of Israel over and over, DON'T practice the ways of the nations around you or else they will become a snare unto you. Yet, Christians practice the ways of the society around us. The world's holiday are our holidays. In time, this Greek culture DEMANDED the Jewish people that they adopt the Greek ways. The SAME thing will happen in OUR LIFETIME. The New World Order and the Anti-Christ will DEMAND that Christians follow THEIR SYSTEM. They are already doing it like a frog in a kettle. How will you respond?
In Jeremiah 12:5 it is written:
"If you run with the footmen and they have wearied thee, then how can you contend with horses? And if in the LAND OF PEACE, wherein you trusted they wearied thee, then how will you do in the swelling of the Jordan?"
If G-d's people can't leave Babylon now will it be any easier in the future? Chanukah teaches us that G-d will fight with those who keep themselves separate from the ways of the Greco/Roman world and seek to follow His commandments. We are always in a struggle to keep G-d's commandments or mix ourselves with the ways of the world. Chanukah teaches us that those who keep His commandments will prevail over the system that is bigger and more powerful than them.
Chanukah is also about the rededication of the Temple back to G-d. In a seven year tribulation, we are told that the False Messiah will go into the Temple and declare himself to be god. If the tribulation starts on a Yom Kippur, this date will be Nisan 10. This is also the same day that the Lamb was to be set aside and examined for four days. So, in this the false Messiah is being a false Messiah and emulating Yeshua/Jesus the true Messiah. In Daniel 12, it tells us that blessed is he who waits 1,335 days. If you go 1,335 days from Nisan 10, you have Kislev 25 or Chanukah. Is it possible that the temple will be rededicated back to G-d in the future on a Kisleve 25? Knowing the patterns and ways of G-d, this is probably so. But, what if we don't celebrate Chanukah and teach our children these things? Our children will perish for a lack of knowledge. G-d gave His holidays for our BENEFIT and for our INSTRUCTION.
What do you think is better for your spiritual development something that HE gave (the Biblical Festivals) or something that religion gave us that REPLACED what G-d gave? Is G-d the author of REPLACING the things that HE gave or is HaSatan ???
G-d is moving ALL OVER THE WORLD and awakening Christians to their Jewish roots. Within this is a MAJOR move to examine His Festivals. Is G-d doing this for a reason? Can we take what He is doing lightly? Or does G-d want us to know and understand the significance of the Holidays that HE gave? Let everyone examine their own hearts. The Word of G-d is a discerner of the thoughts and the intent of the heart (Hebrews 4:12).
So, should we keep the Biblical Holidays or man-made religious holidays to worship G-d? I believe we should keep what HE gave us to keep. Should we keep Chanukah? For salvation, NO. For knowledge and understanding of G-d's Kingdom and His way to study, learn and teach the spiritual lessons of Chanukah to our children, yes. To just keep the Chanukah holiday as an external holiday? Then, this is vain religion. We are to worship G-d is Spirit and in truth.
But, first follow these steps.
#1) STUDY and learn FIRST #2) Understand that this is a PROCESS #3) DON'T try to do all the festivals all at once #4) As you begin to study, learn and grow and are able to keep the SPIRIT of the Festivals and TEACH their SPIRITUAL significance, allow yourself to be led by the Spirit of G-d in observing them #5) DON'T condemn others who are not at the place where G-d is leading you. In COMPASSION, love and teach others remembering that you to were once "a slave in Egypt".
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From: Lorah To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Subject: Re: Chanukah rather than Christmas / Golden Calf
Dear Eddie:
Thank you for the fascinating study on the Golden Calf system of worship. I definitely need to get your books as soon as I can get the money. My comments about Christmas were from my heart and not intended to offend in any way. Still, I feel strongly that God really wants us to worship Him heart to heart (mystical union) first, and through symbolic means (holidays, festivals) second. Or rather, the festivals and holidays are primary ways to worship until one develops a close relationship with the Lord (both Christians and Jews). Then, every day is Shabbat and a rest. (Not to imply that I have achieved this happy and ideal state;-) This is why I see Christmas as equally valid as Chanukah--they are both eclipsed by the true worship of the heart. I hope I don't offend by saying this. I do not mean to imply in any way that those who take the festivals very seriously (and do not accept Christmas and the Church holidays) do not have a close relationship with the Lord. Just that every outward expression takes "a back seat" to loving the Lord "with all one's heart, mind and spirit." Once again, thank you for the very interesting study, and I do hope to get more informed about what "rooters" believe. Perhaps I'll make the fourth round of your book mailings.
Shalom to you and all--Laura
From Eddie: **************
I am saying this to the ENTIRE newsgroup. To say that G-d looks into the heart (which is true), so therefore, I can worship Him through a system of worship that HE DID NOT GIVE and then believe that this is OK does not take into consideration that IF you LOVE G-d with ALL your heart, mind, soul and strength, you will SEEK to find out HOW HE wants to be worshipped NOT how WE WANT to worship Him. Then, if you LOVE Him with all our heart, mind, soul and strength, we will conform to PLEASE HIm. This is the heart that G-d is seeking to find.
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From: "Shane" Subject: Re: Chanukah rather than Christmas / Golden Calf
Lorah
It is good to hear that you are interested in learning about the roots of the christian faith. As a pastor of a local fellowship who has thought from this perspective for over 10 years I know the debates and arguments over the "Christmas" issue. I would like to encourage you to do a personal study a a few items: First when did "Christmas" begin to be celebrated, especially in the christian faith? I think you will find it was not part of the original church and in fact was not even permitted to be observed publically in the U.S. until the last 100 years. The early church believers did not practice this custom. Second the worship of the tree was described in the word of G-d as sin. I know most say they do not worship the tree, yet it does symbolically represent a type of "idol" just as Eddie stated, if not why is it so hard for people to get rid of. Also I would encourage you to consider the concept of celebrating the "birth" of our L-rd. This was not a early church custom either. I have written several articles, mini booklets and have done an extensive tape series that we share at conferences when we speak and in our fellowship on this very topic.
In this series I address all of the debates, issues, for and against Christmas and Chanukah. These are free for the asking. I was raised a Roman Catholic, came to know the l-rd through the Baptist church, moved into ministry throughout the charismatic church and have pastored the current church Hidden Truth Ministries for over 8 years. I will be glad to help anyway that I can. Last thought for now - the word of G-d does not mention the celebration of Christmas or Easter it only mentions the celebration of the Feasts which were to serve as a pattern to show the way for the Messiah.
Shane
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From: Carmen To: <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com> Subject: Re: Chanukah rather than Christmas / Golden Calf
Eddie,
Does this mean that those of us who celebrate Christmas are ungodly or pagans ?
From Eddie: **************
Absolutely not and I never stated this. In fact, I have stated just the opposite. If you have accepted Yeshua/Jesus as your Messiah, then you are saved. Christmas is NOT a salvation issue. I have written to the group and told the group my own testimony that when I celebrated Christmas with all my heart in years past that I was NOT a pagan. I may have been a child in my understanding. I may have been ignorant in my understanding of how to worship G-d, but I most certainly was not a pagan and neither are you.
I am only trying to encourage you to STUDY and understand the significance of the Biblical Festivals to the heart of G-d and how HE gave them to understand HIM and the ways of His Kingdom. Before I understood these things, the Biblical festivals had no meaning to me. Now, since I have studied their significance, they have MUCH meaning to me and I now am able to see the heart and mind of G-d regarding how important they are to HIM.
From Carmen: *****************
I agree with Lorah. I believe that G-d is more concerned about the conditions of our heart rather than "outward" sacrifices. From Eddie: **************
This is true. In Joel 2:13 it is written:
"And rend your heart, and not your garments ..."
From Carmen: *****************
And yes, I believe that we should be careful not to cause a brother to stumble. But isn't a broken and contrite heart more pleasing to our Father than the outward appearance of righteousness ?
Carmen
From Eddie: ***************
In Psalm 51:17 it is written:
"The sacrifices of G-d are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God thou wilt not despise"
But, you cannot have a broken and contrite heart if you do not realize that you are doing something that is not G-d's best for you.
In Ecclesiastes 1:18 is is written:
"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow"
When I was ignorant of the important of the Biblical Festivals to G-d, how they taught about His redemptive plan and our personal relationship with G-d, I had no sorrow that I was keeping Christmas and Easter. But, when I learned the pagan origin of Christmas and Easter and when I learned that Christianity had did the SAME THING as the children of Israel, it cause me great sorrow for my fellow brother and sisters in Christ. Like it said in Ecclesiastes, with much wisdom came much sorrow. I then had a broken and contrite heart. I had a tender heart and I repented of G-d of my ways because I knew that it pleased Him MORE to keep the Festivals that HE gave rather than ones that came from paganism. Does a Holy G-d desire worship toward Him that originated in paganism ??? So, in my broken heart, I repented and I began to do what HE wanted me to do and keep HIS Biblical Festivals. So, yes, Carmen, G-d loved my broken and contrite heart to follow after Him and His ways that HE gave to His people.
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