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From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 1997 12:41 AM To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup Subject: Re: Chanukah rather than Christmas / Golden Calf From: Cherie Ching Subject: Re: Chanukah rather than Christmas / Golden Calf Dear Eddie and All: I'm very glad you are having this discussion now. It gives people several months to prepare to celebrate Channukah, which falls on 24 December this year. But Channukah was not commanded by God to be celebrated. It's rather like the 4th of July, you MAY celebrate it, and it is full of meaning and a lot of fun, but you are not disobeying God if you do not. There are 7 commanded festivals, established by God forever. We know to keep these, but the others are optional. I hate to see people put themselves into bondage over these things. I know Eddie agrees. So, I wish you all a very, happy and joyous Channukah season (here sooner than you think!) and the freedom in Messiah to enjoy it! Cherie Ching ****************************************************************************** From: Sandi To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Subject: Re: Chanukah rather than Christmas / Golden Calf > > My question today has to do with the recent discussion concerning giving up Christmas and celebraating Chanukah instead. Since > Chanukah is not a Biblical holiday I would like to suggest that you go back to John 10:22 and read where Yeshua celebrated Chanukah... Also, I found a website on Mithraism that will verify some of the information that Eddie has shared on the origins of christmas. The address is http://www.tao.ca/~hermes3/mithras.htm Shalom, Sandi ************************************************************************ From: Gregory Richardson To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Subject: Re: Chanukah rather than Christmas / Golden Calf Bob wrote: > My question today has to do with the recent discussion concerning giving up Christmas and celebraating Chanukah instead. Since Chanukah > is not a Biblical holiday and seems to have nothing to do with Christ's birthday, why should non jewish Christians celebrate it? > If there is a great likelihood that Christ was born during Tabernacles, shouldn't that be the time for Christians to celebrate > His birth, rather than Chanukah? > > Thank you for providing access to a wonderful window on true Christianity. > > Maranatha, > Bob > Bob is only partly correct. Chanukah is not a festival that the Lord commanded. It is, however, Biblical. (John 10:22) -Gregory R. ********************************************************************** From: "Pam Staley" To: "Eddie Chumney" <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com> Subject: Chanukah/Christmas Although the debate will go on until the end of time...I'm sure that most of us on this newsgroup truly are searching for the 'truth'. We have been programmed from infanthood concerning the pagan holidays, and have innocently followed these teachings and glossings over of the true Biblical Feast Days, because we trusted the 'teachers'. Most of us have been brought up in church surroundings...that means that we are programmed to accept them...after all, 'we' didn't really have to study...just listen and accept. However, G-d is calling His people out...and to do that He must first teach them His precepts AND His commandments. What commandments?? The Torah.....a subject most christians know little to nothing about. And HOW does He teach us?? by first putting a yearning in our heart...a quest for truth, a search for Him...and this leads directly to the FESTIVALS OF THE LORD.... these are our teaching tools...our blocks of understanding....our text book. Thru these Festivals, He has outlined the blueprint for mankind, He has shown us the beginning to the end...everything is explained in these Festivals and in the Tabernacle. But as babes, we must fight constantly with the old familiaraity of Egypt...it was easy to listen and accept...it was simple to be told what to believe, when to believe it and what to do. NOW He wants us to search out the truth, to explore His ways, .... to KNOW Him. Unlearning...can be painful, can be hurtful but can be so cleansing. But know that you will have those close to you that will try to disassociate themselves with you, will mock you and will cause you pain. There are many trials and tribulations that you will have to endure as you slowly learn the ways of Yahweh...for they are strange to us who have been 'christianized' and who have lost the identity of our roots. Our heritage has been wiped clean...as the church began a new page in the early 300's...she took the eraser, and wiped the chalkboard clean of our Hebraic Heritage, our Israelite roots, and had us write 500 times..."I am a Christian in the Roman Church...I do not belong to the House of Israel", I am a Christian in the Roman Church...I do not belong to the House of Israel", I am a Christian in the Roman Church...I do not belong to the House of Israel". It is a hard thing to unlearn...especially when you are surrounded by others who are still repeating it over and over and over.... BUT the good news is that HE IS FAITHFUL....thru all the trials and tribulations that we go thru, thru all the tears, wrong paths, and good intentions seemingly gone wrong....HE will uphold us..HE will carry us...HE will not forsake us....>>> HE HAS A PLAN << and everything we go thru, absolutely everything...will work towards our good...for those who love the Lord and are called.... So, dear friends...those of you just beginning on this new fork in the road of life, have patience....trust in the Lord...and He will teach you what you need to know....ask and He shall answer.... and sometimes......He'll answer thru those of us on this newsgroup who have been around for awhile....and have the scars to prove it! ;-> Shalom, and Shalom Pam ************************************************************************** From: drleves To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Subject: Re: Chanukah rather than Christmas / Golden Calf The church today is liken on to Jews being called out of Babylon. They had acquired strange customs and strange wives. The L-rd required them to divorce and send away those pagan spouses and offsprings. Ezra 10:2-3 2 And Shechaniah the son of Jehiel, one of the sons of Elam, spoke up and said to Ezra, "We have trespassed against our God, and have taken pagan wives from the peoples of the land; yet now there is hope in Israel in spite of this. 3 "Now therefore, let us make a covenant with our God to put away all these wives and those who have been born to them, according to the advice of my master and of those who tremble at the commandment of our God; and let it be done according to the law. (NKJ) Today the L-rd is calling His bride out of Babylon (the old religious system) to His Torah. The wives of today's believers are the pagan rituals and so called holydays of Christmas, Easter, etc. The Samaritans had tried to find the G-d of Israel in duplicating some of the ordinances and mixing them with old paganistic concepts. And Jesus said to the little lady at the well, John 4:22 22 "You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. (NKJ) Separating from those old concepts is hard, and only a sincere heart can the Golden calf of religion be broken, and that is having a real relationship with the L-rd. His Holy Torah then will set people free, from the bondage of religion and commercialized religious customs. Don *************************************************************************** From: Hal Ambuter To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Subject: RE: Chanukah rather than Christmas / Golden Calf -Reply Eddie, Well the debate rages on!!! I will take the position of an observer: This conference talks about returning to the "true roots of the faith" and its application to "New Testament" Scripture - especially in regards to the feasts. But is that what is happening? It seems like all we do is debate Easter/Passover and Christmas/Chanukah. The discussion from "the enlightened ones" is how unscriptural Christmas and Easter are and how they are unbiblical feasts. Yet, when Passover and, especially, Succott roll around it seems that there is only discussion regarding the "Old Testament" scriptures and at best the Millennial Kingdom. If the birth of Messiah and His death, burial, and resurrection are intricately linked to the feasts, then where is the positive commentary on this? This is most evident with the Christmas/Chanukah/Succott debate. Where is the celebration or at best acknowledgment of the birth of Messiah at Succott from the Messianic community? If Messiah was born on Succott and not December 25 then show the "rest of us" the proper way to celebrate or acknowledge it. And please don't say that there are no biblical mandates or instructions for how to do this - because there are not any for any of the other feasts either. The bulk of this "celebration stuff" is man-made. Let's face it and be honest. If the Jewish community has found ways to celebrate Purim (with virtually zero "instructions"), then it must have ways to celebrate the birth of her Messiah. If we can develop "instructions" / customs to wave noice makers when Haman's name is mentioned during the reading of the book of Ester and even have specific instructions as to which way a Tallis should be put on then we can find ways to celebrate one of the most important events in all of Scripture - the birth of the King. Don't you think??? Having been through the Fall of 1996 with this conference, I observed no, none, zip discussion around the time of Succott regarding the birth of Y'shua. No, this discussion only comes up around Chanukah or a "safer" time like what is happening right now. And even then, the discussion goes something like this: "believers should be celebrating Chanukah and not Christmas --- none-the-less Jesus was born at Succott anyway." I have been loosely associated with the Messianic Movement (being a Jewish believer myself) for 13 years now (on July 4). Not one Succott celebration that I have attended focused at all on the birth of Messiah. All the celebration is focused on the Millennial Kingdom and the coming visible reign of the conquering and victorious Messiah. This is great and highly biblical. But if Succott is truly the "time" in which the Messiah was born - instead of December - then why is this monumental event missing from the "Messianic liturgy"? In regards to Chanukah. . .I said it before and I will say it again. Chanukah is not a biblical feast anymore than Christmas or Easter is. In fact, there is not one mention of the Chanukah account in the whole of Scripture. The whole "thing" is legend - perhaps it is true - but there is no biblical account of its authenticity. There are no scriptures which speak to spinning wooden dreidels and lighting Menorah's and giving presents for eight days. Yet, we are told that it is "more biblical" and more "spiritual" to do this than to have a Christmas tree or having lights around the house or in giving presents. No parallels here??? There are no scriptures that speak to even the existence of the Maccabees and yet we are told that this extra biblical account is more important to celebrate than the 4-6 solid chapters of scripture regarding the virgin birth and the eventual birth of Messiah found in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. And now some are writing that though are salvation will not be effected, our rewards/position in Heaven and perhaps even our prayer lives will be effected if we celebrate Christmas instead of Chanukah. What is wrong here? Does this puzzle anyone else??? Why is this? I fear to ask the question for my conjecture is that the birth of the Messiah has "bad" or "uncomfortable" connotations for Jewish believers and Jews in general. I sense that this scriptural account is too "gentile" for some of my brethren. I fear to say the following in that it may offend someone. . . But just as the Jews of the first century were looking for a victorious, mighty warrior, we too (my Jewish brothers and sisters) would like to forget that He first came to us as a babe in the manger, wrapped in swaddling clothes for there was no room for Him in the inn. This is a very humbling account of our Savior - it is uncomfortable to think about and apply to our personal lives. We would much rather think about the resurrection, the triumph over Satan, and His Second Coming than a meek and helpless little baby born in a trough. Yet, it is the truth! Messiah was born this way. Pastors have been preaching countless sermons on it to convey its relevance and importance in the believers life. Believers have composed elaborate and moving hymns and songs to convey the message of "Christmas" to the world. Yet, the Messianic community seems to reject, or perhaps more kinder, ignores this section of Scripture. I ask again, "why is this"? None-the-less, this debate will continue. Jews will keep on celebrating Chanukah and the gentiles will keep on celebrating Christmas. The wall between us remains. There seems to be no move towards resolution. It is a shame. . . Hal From Eddie: ************** Hal, I would like to comment on several of your questions. You ask: > >"If the birth of Messiah and His death, burial, and resurrection are intricately linked to the feasts, then >where is the positive commentary on this?" > I have written a 230 page book entitled, "The Seven Festivals of the Messiah". MANY on this newsgroup have written and purchased the book from me, thank you and I pray that your spiritual life has been enriched. The Festivals are RICH in meaning and there are MANY themes in each festival. The ENTIRE TEXT of my book, "Seven Festivals of the Messiah" is at my Web site located at: http://www.hebroots.org/eddiesbooks.htm Anybody on this newsgroup (or anyone in the world who is surfing the Internet) can go to this site at any time and read about how the festivals teach about the 1st and 2nd coming of the Messiah and our personal relationship with God. This newsgroup is not meant to be a substitute for personal study. At best, it can encourage our members to "taste" of these things. There is a VERY DIVERSE audience on this newsgroup. Some are only beginning to study, others have studied for years. We have new members almost every day. So, the best that we can do is discuss issues and point people in the right direction. We can refer them to resource materials for further study. Yes, the festivals teach about the 1st and 2nd coming of Yeshua/Jesus. Yes, they teach about the ways of the Kingdom of God. Yes, they teach about our personal relationship with God. Yes, Messiah died on Passover. Yes, he was in the ground on unleavened bread. Yes, his resurrection is linked to the feast of First Fruits (I Cor 15:20,23). Yes, the Ruach HaKodesh / Holy Spirit was outpoured on the Feast of Pentecost. Yes, the resurrection of the dead will be "at the last trump" (I Cor 15:52) (A term for Rosh HaShanah). Yes, Yeshua/Jesus will set foot on the Mount of Olives on Yom Kippur. Yes, Yeshua/Jesus was born on Sukkot. Yes, Sukkot teaches us about the Messianic Age. Yes, Simchat Torah (rejoicing in the Torah) teaches us about eternity. Just this paragraph alone should cause a Christian to stop and think and say, "The redemption, the Messiah and the Feasts" are linked to each other. Since I believe in Messiah, they MUST be important". There are VERY POSITIVE issues regarding how the Festivals are linked to Messiah. Yes, this needs to be shown and seen. But, what also needs to be seen is how the origins of Christmas and Easter come from paganism and that this is a golden calf system of worship (mixing paganism with the true worship of the God of Israel) and calling this worship, the true worship of the God of Israel. Since most Christians have a positive identity of Christmas and Easter to Messiah, the issues of the origin and Christmas and Easter and the light of the Festivals BOTH need to be seen and discussed. We are called to be DISCIPLES (which is a student). What has just been mentioned above only SKIMS THE SURFACE of the richness of the Biblical Festivals. The subject entails so much that a book needed to be written to explain the various themes and aspects of the Festivals which I have done. This forum is not meant to be a substitute for personal study so therefore we can't discuss all the things that need to be discussed on this newsgroup regarding the festivals. I have written in my book, "The Seven Festivals of the Messiah" info on the birth on Yeshua/Jesus during the festival of Sukkot (http://www.hebroots.org/eddiesbooks.htm). I praise God that Yeshua/Jesus was sent by God and came to us as a little baby in a manger. But, TODAY, He is sitting at the right side of God the Father (Hebrews 1:3). While we REMEMBER the humble birth of our Messiah, God is calling His people today to PREPARE to meet the bridegroom. With this "wooing" is a plea to leave Babylon and return to the a purer worship of the God of Israel. Should we be told HOW to celebrate the Festivals? No, that would be legalism. Do you know of any Christian who goes to another Christian during Christmas and says, "You really didn't celebrate Christmas this year because you didn't do it right". In the same way, we can't go to our brothers and sisters who are desiring to observe the Festivals and tell them, "You didn't do it right". For those who want to make the claim that it is OK with God if you celebrate Christmas and Easter because "God looks into the heart", I would say that is it OK how someone attempts to celebrate the Biblical Festivals because "God looks into the heart". You also write: > >In fact, there is not one mention of the Chanukah account in the whole of Scripture. The whole "thing" is legend - >perhaps it is true - but there is no biblical account of its authenticity. There are no scriptures which speak >to spinning wooden dreidels and lighting Menorah's and giving presents for eight days. Yet, we are told >that it is "more biblical" and more "spiritual" to do this than to have a Christmas tree or having lights around >the house or in giving presents. No parallels here??? There are no scriptures that speak to even the >existence of the Maccabees and yet we are told that this extra biblical account is more important to >celebrate than the 4-6 solid chapters of scripture regarding the virgin birth and the eventual birth of >Messiah found in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. And now some are writing that though are >salvation will not be effected, our rewards/position in Heaven and perhaps even our prayer lives will be >effected if we celebrate Christmas instead of Chanukah. What is wrong here? Does this puzzle anyone else??? > The Maccabees are documented in history to have lived. Their family ruled Israel from the Maccabean revolt to the days of Yeshua/Jesus. In order to follow this history, I would encourage you to examine the book, "The History of the Jews - Part I" from Mesorah publications, (1-800-Mesorah). Regarding Chanukah, it has a RICH spiritual lesson for us today. It is mentioned in the Bible in (John 10:22). We are not directly commanded by God to observe it in Lev 23. However it tells us in Zechariah 8:19: "Thus saith the Lord of hosts: the fast of the fourth month, and the fast of the fifth, and the fast of the seventh and the fast of the tenth (which are fast of mourning) shall be to the house of Judah (the Jewish people) JOY and GLADNESS and cheerful feasts, therefore love the truth and peace". Where did God COMMAND these fasts to be observed? Are we required to observe them anymore than Chanukah? Then, why does God say that in a future time that these fasts of mourning will become fast of joy if they won't continue to be celebrate in the Messianic Age? We have no reference or indication from scripture that Chanukah will be observed during the Messianic Age. But will the feasts of mourning (turned into joy) be observed as mentioned above in Zechariah 8:19 and not Chanukah also? Can we imagine a Torah observant Messiah NOT wanting anything to do with Chanukah which celebrated the victory of God's people over Helenism (Greco influence) ??? I could understand your statements and this discussion if you were a non-Jew and I was Jewish but I am a non-Jew and you are Jewish and I am encouraging believers in Messiah to celebrate the Biblical holidays and you are not. To use your question, "What is wrong here?". LOGICALLY, shouldn't it be the other way around ??? So, what is the conclusion of the matter? The Spirit of God is awakening believers ALL OVER THE WORLD to examine the roots of their faith. In doing so, they are reevaluating keeping the sabbath and the Biblical Festivals. The FIRST step is to STUDY. SECOND, begin to observe as the Ruach HaKodesh leads. THIRD, in observing the Festivals, don't be bound by legalism and Rabbinic Judaism. God honors the heart. When we GROW in the knowledge of our faith, we are spiritually making ALIYAH (which means 'to ascend'). Does that make those who have not yet grown in their understanding heathens if they have accepted Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah? Heaven forbid! But, those who are strong (have grown in their understanding) are to bear the burdens of the weak (teach those who are seeking the ways of God and His Kingdom) in LOVE. This is the heart and purpose of the ministry that God has given me and the heart of this newsgroup. Eddie Chumney **********************************************************************
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