HHMI Newsgroup Archives
From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 1997 12:42 AM
To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
From: Liz
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
Eddie,
Not mentioned in this dialogue is the fact that the Jewish heart has been blinded to this truth (Jesus Christ is Messiah) until the
fullness of the Gentiles. Let us not judge one another, lest we be judged. Eddie can you expound on this premise please?
From Eddie:
**************
What you have just said, " the Jewish heart has been blinded to this truth (Jesus Christ is Messiah) until the
fullness of the Gentiles" is absolutely true.
In Romans 11:25 it is written:
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery lest ye should be wise in your own conceits that blindness in
part is happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in"
In Romans 11:15 it is written:
"For if the casting away of them (the Jews AS A CORPORATE PEOPLE didn't recognize the Messiah) be the reconciling of the world, what
shall be the receiving of them be, but life from the dead"
There is coming a day in the near future when G-d will redeem the nation of Israel from her enemies and the Jewish people will
receive her Messiah. In Zechariah 12:9-10 it is written:
"And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the
house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and the spirit of supplication, and they shall look upon ME
(next in Hebrew comes ALEPH/TAV (the beginning and the end) a term for Yeshua/Jesus ... Revelation 1:8, 11, 22:13, Isaiah 41:4, 44:6)
whom they have PIERECED adn they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is
in bitterness for his firstborn"
***********************************************************************
From: rose
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
Dear Eddie,
I never thought that I'd live to see the day that I thought you were wrong in your interpretation of anything, and I found that kind of
scary. So I am very happy to tell you that I think that you are way off base on this one, and that Ken is absolutely correct.
Trying to figure out who is saved and who isn't is treacherous ground indeed. Jesus broke the rules of the pharisees - showing that the
rules had been misunderstood. "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."
The thief on the cross was not baptized, did not repent and did not accept Jesus as his Savior. Yet, I can show you Scriptures that say
that each of these steps is necessary for salvation. So how come Jesus said to him, "Today, you will be with me in Paradise?"
Could it be that G-d judged this thief by his heart condition? Could it be that since G-d is Love - that the thief's words of love
demonstrated that G-d lived in his heart? I have always been able to identify a real Jew by this alone: - G-d lives in their hearts.
G-d loves His Chosen people. They are simply fulfilling their destiny and our destiny is to follow them because they are the ones
who know G-d. They are not lost. If they have accepted G-d, haven't they already accepted their Messiah who happens to be the One and the
Same? They simply did not recognize Him, just as the thief on the cross did not recognize Him. But they have accepted Him - otherwise
He could not live in their hearts as He does.
Rose
From Eddie:
**************
While I would be the first to admit that I am NOT perfect and infallible, I believe that you are wrong on this issue Rose. The Bible
makes this statement in Romans 3:9-10, 21-26 as it is written:
"What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved BOTH Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin. As
it is written, There is NONE righteous, No, NOT ONE ...But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested being witnessed by
the law and the prophets, even the righteousness of God which is BY FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST UNTO ALL and UPON ALL of them THAT BELIEVE: for
there is NO DIFFERENCE: for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God: being justified freely by his grace through the
redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through FAITH IN HIS BLOOD to declare HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS
for the REMISSION OF SINS that are past, through the forbearance of God. To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness and the
justifier of him WHICH BELIEVES IN JESUS"
If the Jews feel no need to receive Messiah, then why do Orthodox Jews pray everyday for the coming of Messiah? If Jews don't
need to accept Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah then why do they mourn for Messiah in (Zechariah 12:10) ??? If Jews don't need to accept
Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah then why did Stephen preach Messiah to the Jews and it cost him his life? If Jews don't need to accept
Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah then why did Paul preach that Yeshua/Jesus is Messiah in the synogogues in the book of Acts? If Jews don't need to
accept Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah then why did Peter preach that Yeshua/Jesus is Messiah on they day of Pentecost and 3,000 Jews were
saved ???
One of the most well-know scriptures in Christianity is John 3:16 as it is written:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten SON that WHOSOEVER believes in HIM should not perish but have EVERLASTING
LIFE".
Did Yeshua/Jesus lie when he said in John 14:6:
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life, NO MAN comes unto the Father but by ME"
If the Jews do not need to accept Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah then why did Yeshua/Jesus tell the Pharisees (who are the modern
Orthodox Jews) in John 8:13, 21 these words:
"The Pharisees therefore said unto him ...Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me and shall DIE in your SINS
whither I go, ye cannot come"
Regarding baptism and salvation, being baptized will NOT save you. You are saved by FAITH in your HEART that Yeshua/Jesus is
Messiah. In Romans 10:9-12 it is written:
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shall BELIEVE in your HEART that God has RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, you
shall be saved. For with the HEART man BELIEVES unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the
Scripture saith, WHOSOEVER believes on HIM shall not be ashamed. for there is NO DIFFERENCE between JEW and GENTILE: for the same Lord
over ALL is rich unto all that call upon him"
In Acts 4:10-12 it is written:
"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God has
raised from the dead, even by him does this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which is set at naught of you builders,
which is become the head of the corner. NEITHER is there SALVATION in ANY OTHER: for there is NONE OTHER NAME under heaven given among
men whereby we MUST be SAVED"
Rose, I believe that these scriptures are self-explanatory. BOTH Jew and Gentile need to accept Yeshua/Jesus as
Messiah for their own personal salvation.
*************************************************************************
From: Cheryl Guy
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
If the Jews do not need to accept Yeshua as Messiah, then why did Yeshua tell Nicodemus (who was a jew) "Ye must be born again"?
Cheryl
**********************************************************************
----------
From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Sent: Friday, July 04, 1997 2:37 AM
To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup
Subject: RE: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Mess
From: "Robert A. Hocker"
To: "'heb_roots_chr@geocities.com'" <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Subject: RE: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
>
> >From Eddie:
> ***************
>
> And the Holy Spirit reveals that Yeshua/Jesus is LORD (I Cor 12:3).
Thanks, Eddie, for taking such a strong and persuasive stand with respect to the central teaching of all of scripture... that
Yeshua/Jesus IS Messiah AND LORD and must be believed upon for salvation! I find myself being a little surprised how
such a basic biblical message seems to be so easily mis-understood by people who seem to love G-d and His word so much!
Thanks again for your teaching and backing it up with lots and lots of scripture!
Rob.
From Eddie:
**************
It is amazing to me that Christians who are now discovering their lost Jewish roots are so zealous for embracing their Jewish
roots and the love for the Jewish people that they fail to understand the BASICS of salvation and the basic salvation message which
HAS been properly taught within Christianity. So, let's also embrace the TRUTHS within Christianity that have been correctly
taught from the scriptures.
We are sinners. We need a Savior. We cannot save ourselves. Keeping the law does not save us. We are saved by God's grace.
We need the Messiah.
In Luke 24:44 it is written:
"And he (Yeshua/Jesus) said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that ALL things must be
fufilled which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets and in the Psalms CONCERNING ME (Yeshua/Jesus)"
In Psalm 40:7 it is written:
"Then said I, lo, I come in the volume of the book it is written of ME. I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea thy law is within my heart"
In Hebrews 10:7, it is written:
"Then said, I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me) to do thy will O God"
In I Corinthians 15:14, 17 it is written:
"And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain ... And if Christ be not raised, your faith is
vain, ye are yet in your sins"
While everyone on this list should understand that the purpose of Hebraic Heritage Ministries is to restore the Jewish Roots of
Christianity and to educate believers about the Sabbath, Festivals and the role of the Torah, IF we do ALL this but DISCARD MESSIAH then
this is ALL vain religion and to put it bluntly, dung!
Messiah is EVERTHING !!! ALL these things teach about HIM! (Psalm 40:7, Luke 24:44).
To embrace your Jewish roots and discard who Messiah is and the work that He has done in the redemption, you are following
vanity. SOME "Hebraic Roots" movements, discard Messiah and say that He is NOT important for salvation yet ALL the scriptures teach
us about HIM (Psalm 40:7, Hebrews 10:7, Luke 24:44).
Man is not capable of being born of a virgin. Not one man has lived a sinless life. Not one man is capable of forgiving or paying for
the sins of the world but MESSIAH is able to do these things that only God can do showing that He Himself is God manifested in the flesh.
*********************************************************************
Reply-to: rose
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com wrote:
>
>
From: Barbara DiGilio
Organization: Mayim Hayim Ministry
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???]
>
>From Barbara:
**************
..."What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (According
as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this
day." Romans 11:7, 8... > ...Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah? The only honest answer is YES, as Eddie has stated over, and over
again. God bless you Eddie. > Shalom, Barbara (A Jew who Messiah found, out on a limb!) >
************************************************************************
>From Rose:
**************
The trouble we experience with Traditional Christianity today is that they cannot seperate the trumpted up ideology that one must believe in
the identity of a person... "Messiah" from the ALL IMPORTANT FACT that its the MESSAGE Jesus brought not His IDENTITY.
From Eddie:
***************
The MESSAGE was HIS IDENTITY and because of HIS IDENTITY He was able to ACCOMOLISH the redemptive plan of God. This
MESSAGE was the IDENTITY that Yeshua/Jesus IS MESSIAH and the Savior of the world.
Rose, with your upbringing, you should be VERY FAMILIAR with this passage in Matthew 16:13, 15 as it is written:
"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, whom do men say that *I* the son of man *AM*? ...
He saith unto them, But whom say you that *I AM*?
In Matthew 16:16-17 it is written:
"And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ (THE MESSIAH), the Son of the Living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him,
Blessed are you Simon (Simeon which comes from SHEMA which means "Hearing") Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee
but my Father which is in heaven"
Rose, THE ISSUE in the question was the IDENTITY of who Jesus was. Peter responded that Jesus (HIS IDENTITY) was the MESSIAH
and Jesus praised Peter for giving the correct answer.
From Rose:
**************
He taught Mat.5 --- Second Tablet --- Tzedekah--- This was the MESSAGE.
Sure they were going to DIE IN THEIR SINS if they didn't repent. But from what? What were the sins, they were doing?
From Eddie:
*************
What were the sins? In I John 3:4 it is written:
"Whosever committeth sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law"
In James 2:10 it is written:
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all"
In Romans 3:9-10 it is written:
"What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that ALL are under sin. As it is
written, There is none righteous, no, not one"
In Isaiah 59:1-2, 16 it is written:
"Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened that it cannot save: neither his ear heavy that it cannot hear. But your iniquities have
separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear ... And he saw tha there was NO MAN
and wondered that here was NO INTERCESSOR: therefore HIS ARM BROUGHT SALVATION unto him and his righteousness it sustained him"
Who is the ARM that brought SALVATION ???
In Isaiah 53:1, 6 it is written:
"Who has believed our report? and to whom is the ARM OF THE LORD revealed? ... all we like sheep have gone astray: we have turned
every one to his own way: and the Lord has laid on HIM (the ARM OF THE LORD ... who is the MESSIAH Yeshua/Jesus) the iniquity of us ALL (both
Jew and non-Jew)"
In Acts 4:12 it is written:
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given unto me whereby we MUST be saved"
Rose, I believe that these scriptures are VERY CLEAR. Yeshua/Jesus is the MESSIAH of the entire world (both Jew and
non-Jew) because we ALL (both Jew and non-Jew) are under sin and have transgressed the Torah of God. Therefore, because we cannot save
ourselves, WE (both Jew and non-Jew) need a MESSIAH.
In Matthew 16:16, Peter said, that Yeshua/Jesus IS the CHRIST (the Messiah).
From Rose:
**************
What did Jesus constantly teach them, ( love thy neighbor as thyself) part of the greatest commandment.
From Eddie:
**************
Yes, but this has NOTHING to do with salvation. This has to do HOW we live our lives as a REDEEMED people.
From Rose:
**************
Take Torah to the Gentiles. They were not doing this because of the Rabbinic Laws instituted by those like Shami, who hated Gentiles. Laws
that said Gentiles were unclean, and stay away from them.
Eddie you quote....
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in HIM should not perish, but have
everlasting life. (KJV)
Believeth in who? How about God? How about God Fearers believing in Gods way of living. That's the message of Jesus, --how God wants us to
live toward Him and each other... Not the identity of someone...
From Eddie:
**************
Jesus DID teach us how God wants us to live toward Him and each other BUT He also taught us that HE is Messiah and the ENTIRE
TeNACH speaks of HIM as HE told us in (Luke 24:44). So, Rose your statement is only a half truth.
From Rose:
**************
The word believe holds within it a physical activity not just head knowledge. As soon as we get that through our heads then the light
goes on and we can begin to assimilate the teachings and implement them into our lives....
From Eddie:
**************
This is correct. In Matthew 5:14, 16, Yeshua/Jesus said:
"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid ... let your light so shine before men, that they may see your
good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven"
From Rose:
**************
Dear Eddie,
You are doing such a mighty work for the L-rd that it makes me feel unworthy to attempt to drive home this point. Perhaps, G-d has a
purpose for your being deaf in this one area - maybe it would interfere with your missionary zeal, I just don't know.
From Eddie:
***************
Actually, Rose, I don't think that I am being deaf in this area. I have given scripture over and over and over to show you what
the scriptures say. I cannot make you believe the scriptures. So, if I have shown over and over and over what the scriptures say, who is
being blinded ???
From Rose:
**************
"Hear O Israel - the L-rd your G-d is One G-d." Therefore, I do know that to believe in either the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit is to
believe in G-d. To follow one is to follow all - for they are One. If one accepts the sacred Tetragrammaton, that one has already
accepted his Messiah.
From Eddie:
***************
Yeshua/Jesus said that HE was YHVH. In Philippians 2:10-11 it is written:
"That at the NAME of Jesus EVERY KNEE should bow (woops there goes the argument that only God is to be worshipped) , of things in heaven and
things in earth and things under the earth. And that EVERY TONGUE should confess that Jesus Christ is LORD (YHVH in Hebrew) to the GLORY
(or delight) of God the Father"
In Revelation 19:13, 16 it is written:
"And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood, and his NAME is called the Word of God (Jesus) ... and HE has on his vesture and on
his thigh a NAME wriiten, KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS"
In Zechariah 14:3-4, 9:
"Then shall the LORD (YHVH in Hebrew) go forth and fight against those nations ... and HIS FEET (the Lord ... YHVH) shall stand in that day
upon the mount of Olives ... and the LORD (YHVH) shall be KING (Revelation 19:16) over all the earth: in that day shall there be one
Lord and his name one"
So, clearly the scriptures teach that Yeshua/Jesus is YHVH yet by accepting the tetragrammaton have the Jews as a corporate
people accepted Messiah when they call Yeshua/Jesus in the Talmud (YESHU ... which means 'May his name forever be blotted out of our
remembrance)? And Rose, you have also ignored my point that if the Jews as a corporate people already belief in Messiah by believing in
the Tetragrammaton then why did Rabbi Akiva say that Bar Kochba is Messiah when Bar Kochba is not YHVH (the Tetragrammaton) ?? And why
have the Chassidic Jews in this decade try to embrace Rabbi Scheerson as Messiah if he is not YHVH (the Tetragrammaton) ??
From Rose:
***************
Also, I do know that G-d would not blind and deafen his Chosen people - so that He could condemn them and all the generations that followed
because from being blinded and deafened, they did not recognize their Messiah.
From Eddie:
***************
Apparently you do not understand Romans 11:25-26 as it is written:
"For I would NOT, brethren that you be IGNORANT of this MYSTERY (Sod or deeper spiritual meaning) lest ye should be wise in your own
conceits that BLINDESS in PART is happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in ... THEN shall come out of Zion
the DELIVERER ..."
Rose, are you trying to tell me that ALL Jews are saved BECAUSE they were BORN Jews ??? or is the scripture in Hebrews 11:6
true as it is written:
"For without FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please him (God) ..."
In Mark 4:11-12 it is written:
"And he (Jesus) said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery (Sod the deeper spiritual meaning) of the Kingdom of God: but
unto them that are without all these things are done in parable. That seeing that may see and not perceive: and hearing they may hear, and
not understand: lest at any time they should be converted and THEIR SINS should be forgiven them"
In Isaiah 6:8-10 it is written:
"And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I: send me. And he said, Go, and
tell this people, Hear ye indeed but understand not, and see ye indeed but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their
ears heavy, and shut their eyes, lest they see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart, and convert and
be healed"
Rose, what more can I say? The scriptures speak for themselves.
From Rose:
**************
And I do know that even though they do not recognize Yeshua as their Messiah, that He still gathered them from out of the nations, restored
their land, will come to save them from their enemies - and will redeem them - all this, despite the fact that they do not recognize
their Messiah until He comes as King of kings and L-rd of lords.
We should all be so "lost."
Rose
From Eddie:
**************
God does the above that you mentioned because of HIS GRACE and MERCY. NOT because the people are not lost.
In Deuteronomy 30:3 it is written:
"That then the Lord they God will turn your captivity and have COMPASSION upon thee and will return and gather thee from all the
nations whither the Lord thy God has scattered thee"
Rose, in fact, God saved us "lost" Gentiles the SAME way by the GRACE and His MERCY and His COMPASSION.
Rose, while is is GREAT that God has put such a LOVE in your heart for the Jewish people, this LOVE MUST be BALANCED with the
KNOWLEDGE and TRUTH of the SCRIPTURES. I have done my best to show you what the scriptures say. It is my prayer that you consider what
the Word of God says regarding these things.
*************************************************************************
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
From: Cherie Ching
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
Dear Eddie and Rooters:
I would like to respond to the point Rose made regarding the criminal on the cross. She stated he did not recognize Y'Shua, did not repent
and was not baptized. I submit that none of this is true. The scriptures say both criminals were mocking Y'Shua. Then, later, this
criminal rebuked the other and said "we deserve our punishment but this man is innocent; Jesus, when you come into your kingdom,
remember me." To repent means to 'turn and go the other way', which this criminal did. When he recognized that Jesus was innocent,
admitted He was going to His kingdom, and asked to be remembered, this man was showing he recognized Y'Shua as Messiah. Since no one
recognizes this without being 'born from above', I say he was 'baptized' by the Holy Spirit also. Getting dunked is not baptism
(although I ascribe to it, it obviously doesn't prevent salvation if not done), the true baptism is of, and by, the Holy Spirit. You
cannot recognize Y'Shua in your spirit until the Holy Spirit reveals Him. So, in that sense you are baptized (or 'born again from above')
as your first step toward salvation. Then you 'recognize Y'Shua as your saviour', then you 'repent' and lead a life following the
Messiah. This is exactly what this criminal did, and in that order. We will get to talk to him about it one day. What a thrill, I can
hardly wait!
Shalom,
Cherie Ching
***********************************************************************
From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 1997 1:49 AM
To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Mess
heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com wrote:
>
> From: Liz
> To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
> Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
>
> Eddie,
>
> Not mentioned in this dialogue is the fact that the Jewish heart has been blinded to this truth (Jesus Christ is Messiah) until the
> fullness of the Gentiles. Let us not judge one another, lest we be judged. Eddie can you expound on this premise please?
>
> >From Eddie:
> **************
>
> What you have just said, " the Jewish heart has been blinded to this truth (Jesus Christ is Messiah) until the
> fullness of the Gentiles" is absolutely true.
>
> In Romans 11:25 it is written:
>
> "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery lest ye should be wise in your own conceits that blindness in
> part is happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in"
>
> In Romans 11:15 it is written:
>
> "For if the casting away of them (the Jews AS A CORPORATE PEOPLE didn't recognize the Messiah) be the reconciling of the world, what
> shall be the receiving of them be, but life from the dead"
>
> There is coming a day in the near future when G-d will redeem the nation of Israel from her enemies and the Jewish people will
> receive her Messiah. In Zechariah 12:9-10 it is written:
>
> "And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the
> house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and the spirit of supplication, and they shall look upon ME
> (next in Hebrew comes ALEPH/TAV (the beginning and the end) a term for Yeshua/Jesus ... Revelation 1:8, 11, 22:13, Isaiah 41:4, 44:6)
> whom they have PIERECED adn they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is
> in bitterness for his firstborn"
>
> ***********************************************************************
>
> From: rose
> To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
> Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
>
> Dear Eddie,
>
> I never thought that I'd live to see the day that I thought you were wrong in your interpretation of anything, and I found that kind of
> scary. So I am very happy to tell you that I think that you are way off base on this one, and that Ken is absolutely correct.
>
> Trying to figure out who is saved and who isn't is treacherous ground indeed. Jesus broke the rules of the pharisees - showing that the
> rules had been misunderstood. "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."
>
> The thief on the cross was not baptized, did not repent and did not accept Jesus as his Savior. Yet, I can show you Scriptures that say
> that each of these steps is necessary for salvation. So how come Jesus said to him, "Today, you will be with me in Paradise?"
>
> Could it be that G-d judged this thief by his heart condition? Could it be that since G-d is Love - that the thief's words of love
> demonstrated that G-d lived in his heart? I have always been able to identify a real Jew by this alone: - G-d lives in their hearts.
>
> G-d loves His Chosen people. They are simply fulfilling their destiny and our destiny is to follow them because they are the ones
> who know G-d. They are not lost. If they have accepted G-d, haven't they already accepted their Messiah who happens to be the One and the
> Same? They simply did not recognize Him, just as the thief on the cross did not recognize Him. But they have accepted Him - otherwise
> He could not live in their hearts as He does.
>
> Rose
>
> >From Eddie:
> **************
>
> While I would be the first to admit that I am NOT perfect and infallible, I believe that you are wrong on this issue Rose. The Bible
> makes this statement in Romans 3:9-10, 21-26 as it is written:
>
> "What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved BOTH Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin. As
> it is written, There is NONE righteous, No, NOT ONE ...But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested being witnessed by
> the law and the prophets, even the righteousness of God which is BY FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST UNTO ALL and UPON ALL of them THAT BELIEVE: for
> there is NO DIFFERENCE: for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God: being justified freely by his grace through the
> redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through FAITH IN HIS BLOOD to declare HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS
> for the REMISSION OF SINS that are past, through the forbearance of God. To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness and the
> justifier of him WHICH BELIEVES IN JESUS"
>
> If the Jews feel no need to receive Messiah, then why do Orthodox Jews pray everyday for the coming of Messiah? If Jews don't
> need to accept Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah then why do they mourn for Messiah in (Zechariah 12:10) ??? If Jews don't need to accept
> Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah then why did Stephen preach Messiah to the Jews and it cost him his life? If Jews don't need to accept
> Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah then why did Paul preach that Yeshua/Jesus is Messiah in the synogogues in the book of Acts? If Jews don't need to
> accept Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah then why did Peter preach that Yeshua/Jesus is Messiah on they day of Pentecost and 3,000 Jews were
> saved ???
>
> One of the most well-know scriptures in Christianity is John 3:16 as it is written:
>
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten SON that WHOSOEVER believes in HIM should not perish but have EVERLASTING
> LIFE".
>
> Did Yeshua/Jesus lie when he said in John 14:6:
>
> "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life, NO MAN comes unto the Father but by ME"
>
> If the Jews do not need to accept Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah then why did Yeshua/Jesus tell the Pharisees (who are the modern
> Orthodox Jews) in John 8:13, 21 these words:
>
> "The Pharisees therefore said unto him ...Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me and shall DIE in your SINS
> whither I go, ye cannot come"
>
> Regarding baptism and salvation, being baptized will NOT save you. You are saved by FAITH in your HEART that Yeshua/Jesus is
> Messiah. In Romans 10:9-12 it is written:
>
> "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shall BELIEVE in your HEART that God has RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, you
> shall be saved. For with the HEART man BELIEVES unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the
> Scripture saith, WHOSOEVER believes on HIM shall not be ashamed. for there is NO DIFFERENCE between JEW and GENTILE: for the same Lord
> over ALL is rich unto all that call upon him"
>
> In Acts 4:10-12 it is written:
>
> "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God has
> raised from the dead, even by him does this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which is set at naught of you builders,
> which is become the head of the corner. NEITHER is there SALVATION in ANY OTHER: for there is NONE OTHER NAME under heaven given among
> men whereby we MUST be SAVED"
>
> Rose, I believe that these scriptures are self-explanatory. BOTH Jew and Gentile need to accept Yeshua/Jesus as
> Messiah for their own personal salvation.
>
> *************************************************************************
>
> From: Cheryl Guy
> To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
> Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
>
> If the Jews do not need to accept Yeshua as Messiah, then why did Yeshua tell Nicodemus (who was a jew) "Ye must be born again"?
>
> Cheryl
>
> **********************************************************************
>
From: Weiss Randall
Organization: Crosstalk
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
Dear Eddie:
Thanks for your biblical response to this emotional issue. I am a Jew. I loved God as Jew. For many years, I prayed the Shema daily. I
attended synagogue and davened. I fasted and repented on Yom Kippur. Nevertheless, until I met Jesus, I was not saved. "Their is no other
name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." We can call Him Yeshua, Messiah, Moshiach, or by any other suitable term, but
He alone brings life eternal to a dying world. Judaism offers a very nice tradition and the religion has wonderful
attributes. Unfortunately, salvation is not resident in Jewish practice. It comes through Christ alone!
Randy Weiss, Ph.D.
Host of CrossTalk TV
***************************************************************************
From: Beth
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
Dear Eddie,
I am so thankful that you stand firmly on the word. In Romans 11:15 "For if the casting away of them be the RECONCILING of the world, what
SHALL the receiving of them be, but LIFE FROM THE DEAD"? The only answer is Yes they need, they must accept Jesus as their Messiah. For
every Jew as well as every Gentile that receives their Messiah (Jesus), Heaven rejoices for it is LIFE FROM THE DEAD. For all are
sinners-(Jew and Gentile),We are ALL born physcially alive and spiritually dead until we accept our Messiah Jesus. There is NOTHING
And we become whole at that moment. We become born again in the spirit (Soul) Romans 11:23--- "And they (Jews) also, if they abide not
still in UNBELIEF, shall be grafted in: for G-D is able to graff them in AGAIN".
I notice this word AGAIN. "for G-d is able to graff them in AGAIN". The word of G-d can not be any clearer. While yes, Jesus will return
and crush the enemies of His people and they will know and accept him as messiah, We ALL should pray without ceasing for the Jewish people
to accept him NOW, for what suffering and what pain they will endure before that time. I believe the Holy Spirit is at work among them in a great
way today. Many are awakening from their slumber. As I have written you earlier,
I am married to a Jewish man who still sleeps so to speak. I believe the the Holy Spirit is doing some revealing to him. I would like to
request prayer without ceasing for him. For I know G-d is able to graft him in AGAIN. When I get discouraged, (and I do believe me) ,
Hebrews 10:39, "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul". Hebrews 11:1,
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". I love this !!!!!!! Isn't it wonderful that our
faith is the substance of our hope but the key word is evidence of things not seen. Our faith is to claim the evidence of things not
seen. Please pray for me. I am so excited about this site and learning so much each day. It is so wonderful when the Lord takes you
off milk and starts feeding you meat !!!!!!! What I have realized, that is sad though, is many Christians never cut their teeth so they
choose to stay on baby formula for years or maybe always.... I praise the Lord that I am now "throwing away the pacifier" LOL. Thank you so
much for your ministry.
Beth
***************************************************************************
From: Sharon
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
Just wanted to thank you, Eddie, for being so Bible based and Spirit led. I am finding you and your ministry to be the balance that we
need. Many tend to worship Jewish things instead of seeing them as the key. We need more balance like yours in Messianic Christianity so
that the Body of Christ will not be divided but will come into its fullness. All I can say is keep up the great work!!
Sharon in Loveland, CO
From Eddie:
***************
Sharon,
Thank you for your kind words. Yes, it is true that while our HERITAGE is Jewish, we must remember to not worship
Jewishness but examine the Jewishness of the scriptures to BETTER see MESSIAH and to develop a DEEPER and more meaningful
relationship with HIM as a result !!!
***********************************************************************
From: "Parsons, John J"
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Subject:
RE: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
Thank you, Rav Eddie, for tirelessly and indefatigably speaking the truth in Love.... I appreciate your ministry so much and especially
your BALANCED view regarding the teaching of the Jewish roots of our faith.
Awhile ago, you were kind enough to recommend to me the book, "Our Father Abraham" by Dr. Marvin Wilson. If any of the rooters out
there have not yet read this book, I strongly encourage them to do so. Thanks, Eddie, for your guidance here...
Yes. Our spiritual heritage and legacy from the Jews is unmistakable and certain. I humbly thank the L-rd for grafting me into His Olive
Tree of Israel.... And yet I thankfully concur with you, Eddie, that the church's entire history is not all dreck and
"gentilization" of things Jewish. The concept of the Tri-unity of G-d, for example, is decidedly NOT a 1st-century Judaic concept that
the church somehow adopted (and then later perverted). The idea of the Echad nature of G-d is foundational, but the idea that Y'shua is
the perfect visible expression of the Father literally puts "flesh" on this rather abstruse concept (i.e., of Oneness). The L-rd Y'shua
is G-d Almighty, our King, our Savior, our "Everlasting Father."
Anyway, I thank you for sharing your faith with all of us in this newsgroup. Praise the L-rd Y'shua! Adonai Himself!
Love,
John Parsons
*************************************************************************
From: John Ross
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah
I am not a learned man, I don't don't know the scriptures like the back of my hand. I love the will and law of the G-d of Israel and
hope to know the scriptures like the back of my hand someday. I believe He gave His Law to the Isrealites many years ago. He promised
a Messiah, and he was/is Y'shua (J-sus). Many Jews' ears and eyes did not see and accept Y'shua. However, many did, but most were killed by
the Romans and their Jewish brethern for not helping to defend Jerusalem (against the Romans). The early followers of Y'shua lived
and worshipped (as Jews who openly believed Y'shua was the Messiah) with the rest of the Jewish community (at the Temple and synagogues)
who didn't accept Y'shua. These early believers in Y'shua as Messiah refused to defend Jerusalem against the Romans and were so scorned and
probably many were killed by their enraged fellow citizens of Jerusalem. Quite understandable, not justified or to be defended
however. Fortunately, or was it by divine plan, the message of Y'shua the Messiah had already begun to be dispersed to Jews and Gentiles
throughout the world. Unfortunately, and without question, Y'shua's teachings and message was "altered and infused with" the Gentiles'
earlier pagan rituals and ideas.
The keys: The Torah is from G-d, is still to be accepted and practiced by His followers (ouch, I've got a long ways to go to do
that), and Y'shua was/is the Messiah sent by the same G-d. Belief in those two key points will open our eyes and ears to the NT true
message of the Messiah. Many pagan ways, customs, and ideas have been filtered into the copies of the NT we have today and can cause severe
misunderstanding and distortion of Y'shua's message. The debate over Y'shua being G-d and whether the Law must be observed are just that,
debates that create division and a falling away from G-d's way of life. Jews prior to Y'shua (and ever since) became increasingly
dependant upon the letter of the Law (and all its man-made "fences") rather than on the grace and lovingkindness of G-d. The Messiah
reminded us, indeed offered his blood/life to seal the contract, that the Law (Torah) is our guide but faith in (particularly that the
Messiah's blood was shed as the perfect and everlasting sacrifice for the forgiveness of our sins) and love for G-d's will and grace is what
provides eternal life.
Brother in Y'shua,
John
************************************************************************
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
From: (Jonathan K. Landon)
Eddie:
I definitely support and agree that you have rightly divided the word of truth in this issue. After all, does Rav Shaul in the Scripture
say - speaking of the name of Yeshua - that "there is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved." ? He was a Torah
obervant Jew, and was writing to Gentiles, but he did not say "there is no other name by which YOU must be saved," he said "WE must be
saved."
Jon & Becky Landon
************************************************************************
----------
From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 1997 2:21 AM
To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup
Subject: RE: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Mess
From: "Robert A. Hocker"
To: "'heb_roots_chr@geocities.com'" <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Subject: RE: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
> >From Rose:
> **************
>
> "Hear O Israel - the L-rd your G-d is One G-d." Therefore, I do know that to believe in either the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit is to
> believe in G-d. To follow one is to follow all - for they are One. If one accepts the sacred Tetragrammaton, that one has already
> accepted his Messiah.
>
"To follow one is to follow all..."
Even if we believe we are following G-d, yet if we reject His Son, this is equivalent to rejecting the Father:
Luke 10:16 "The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One
who sent Me."
and
John 5:22-23 "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, in order that all may honor the
Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Rob.
***********************************************************************
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
From: Paul Stringer
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
>
>You ask do the Jews need to accept Jesus Christ as there Lord of their life.
>
To answer this: If you believe that He is the Salvation of Yehew. That He is the one that Isaiah speaks of in 53. and His life was the same
as what Isaiah spoke of as being the Messiah then we look at the book of John in the NT and we find what Jesus said. Chapter 14:6 I am the
way, the truth, and the light, and no man cometh to the father than by me. John 18:9 Jesus said I am the door. by me, if any man enter in he
shall be saved and shall go in and out and find pasture. John 11:25 and John 11:25 and then John 18:1 also John 1:1. Now we say Jesus is
the Messiah then the answer is yes they must accept Jesus Christ as Lord of their life. there no other way. by His own words there no
other way.
Paul
***************************************************************************
From: "Jason T. Olivea"
To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup<heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
Eddie,
Some thoughts about does a Jew need Yeshua for salvation?
If I have read correctly some say if a Jew is obedient to Hashem then he/she indirectly has accepted Yehsua.
Here are some things that came to mind as I read those e-mail messages. In Romans 10:4 & Galatians 3:24 clearly teach us that the goal of the
Torah(Law) brings us to Messiah Yeshua. So for one who seeks after God with a loyal heart in Torah he will find and see Yeshua. Therefore,
I believe that you can't have one and not the other as Scripture makes very clear from the above Scriptures.
Shalom,
Jason
***********************************************************************
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
From: Ben Goodwyn
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
This is truly a poor question. An atheist does not believe in GOD!!! An agnostic does not know if GOD exists!!! A believer believes in GOD
the Father Ruler of the Universe!!!! The one in which mankind must come to believe is the Surpreme Ruler of the Universe (God the
Father), not Messiah.
From Eddie:
***************
Ben,
I would encourage you to examine the scriptures. They will reveal that the statement that you just made is incorrect according
to scripture. Consider again what our brother Robert Hocker wrote:
Even if we believe we are following G-d, yet if we reject His Son, this is equivalent to rejecting the Father:
Luke 10:16 "The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One
who sent Me."
and
John 5:22-23 "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, in order that all may honor the
Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
From Ben:
************
Peter explains that Messiah is a manifestation of the Surpreme Diety and was revealed in these latter days so that
man might come to faith and hope in the Surpreme Ruler of the Universe. It is just that simple.
In I Pet 1:20 the scripture says, "He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for
you 21who through him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him Glory so that your faith and hope are in God."
The Torah (Word) of God was manifested in 4 B.C.E. as the Messiah so that mankind might come to believe and obey God the Father, the Ruler
of the Universe. That is what Peter said.
From Eddie:
****************
Ben,
Peter also writes in II Peter 1:20:
"Knowing this first that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any PRIVATE interpretation"
In I Corinthians 2:11, 13 it is written:
"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the
Spirit of God ... which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the HOLY SPIRIT teaches, COMPARING
spiritual things with spiritual (scripture with scripture)"
When Satan tempted Yeshua/Jesus in Luke 4:9-10, he ACCURATELY quoted scripture as it is written:
"And he brought him to Jerusalem and set him on a pinnacle of the temple and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast yourself
down from here: for it is written 'He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee' (Psalm 91:11)"
Yeshua/Jesus replied in Luke 4:12 as it is written:
"And Jesus answering said unto him, 'It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God'" (Deuteronomy 6:16).
Satan quoted scriptue and Jesus quoted scripture yet they came to a different conclusion. Why? Because Satan ACCURATELY
quoted Psalm 91:11 but OUT OF CONTEXT. Jesus ACCURATELY quoted scripture (Deut 6:16) but IN CONTEXT.
In Luke 4, Yeshua/Jesus is the one being tempted. Yet when Satan tempted Him, Yeshua/Jesus quoted, (Deut 6:16) which
reads, "You shall not tempt the Lord thy God".
Here, Yeshua/Jesus refers to Himself as the LORD THY GOD.
Clearly, Yeshua/Jesus called Himself God.
In John 3:36 it is written:
"He that believeth on the SON has everlasting life: and he that believeth NOT on the SON shall not see life, but the WRATH of God
abideth on him"
Ben, if Jesus only "pointed the way to God" then why did He say that "He that believes the SON has everlasting life but he
that believes NOT on the SON shall NOT see life, but the WRATH of God abideth on him" ???
What about Acts 4:12 which reads:
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other NAME under heaven, given among men, whereby we MUST be saved"
In John 3:17 it is written:
"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world (at His first coming) but that the WORLD (both Jew and non-Jew) THROUGH HIM
might be SAVED"
These are just a sampling of scriptures to consider for starters.
From Ben:
************
Eddie, if I truly believed in the Holy One of Israel, looked forward with great anticipation for the Messiah and did my best to obeyed
Torah, would I be saved? Be careful, because this describes most devout Jews.
Think about it.........
Peace be with you .................................ben Goodwyn
From Eddie:
**************
OK, I have thought about it. In TODAY'S ARUTZ-7 news, it tells how the Chassidic Jews are paying tribute to Rabbi Scheerson
who many among them were believing that HE was Messiah. He has been dead for three years. These Ultra-Orthodox Jews believe in the Holy
One of Israel, do their best to obey Torah and look forward in great anticipation for the Messiah whom they were expecting to be Rabbi
Scheerson.
When these Jews stand before God on judgment day, are they going to tell God, please accept me into your Kingdom because I
longed for the Messiah whom we believed was Rabbi Scheerson? Will they also say, please accept me because we longed to follow
Torah and we followed a great Torah sage named Rabbi Akiva who proclaimed that Bar Kochba was Messiah? Will they say, God will you
accept me into the Kingdom in the name of Rabbi Scheerson and Bar Kochba ???
While it is noble to follow the Torah, following the Torah CANNOT save you. In Galations 2:16 it is written:
"Knowing that a man is NOT justified by the works of the law but by the FAITH of JESUS CHRIST, that we might be justified by the FAITH of
CHRIST and NOT by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall NO FLESH be justified"
I have also thought about Zechariah 12:10 as it is written:
" ... and they shall look upon ME whom they have PIERCED and they shall MOURN for HIM, as one mourneth for his only son ..."
I have also thought about the words of Yeshua/Jesus in Luke 13:34-35 as it is written:
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killeth the prophets, and stones them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children
together as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not. Behold your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say
unto you, You shall not see ME, until the time when you shall say, Blessed is HE who comes in the NAME OF THE LORD"
Ben, I implore you to examine these scriptures for they do not lie.
******************************************************************************
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
From: Ben Goodwyn
Subject: RE: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
(Eddie) We are sinners. We need a Savior. We cannot save
ourselves.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Is there any possibility that "the Holy One," blessed be his name(Our Father) could save us? Who saved Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses,
>Joshua, David and all those righteous which came before Messiah?
>
From Eddie:
******************
These were saved by FAITH in believing in a FUTURE Messiah (physically) but Messiah has ALWAYS existed.
In John 8:56-58, Yeshua/Jesus said:
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou are not yet fifty years old,
and have you seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, BEFORE Abraham was, I AM (YHVH)"
Here, Jesus tells us that Abraham rejoiced to see HIS DAY and that Jesus existed BEFORE Abraham existed.
So, Ben, the answer to your question is that Abraham was saved by faith in MESSIAH as Jesus tells us in (John 8:56-58).
Jesus was discussing THIS issue in (John 8:51-58).
From Ben:
************
>
>Isa 45:21-22 Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the Lord? And there is no other God
>besides me, a just God and a Savior; THERE IS NONE BESIDES ME.
>
Ben, you need to keep quoting Isaiah 45 and quote verse 23 as it is written:
"I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall
bow, every tongue shall swear"
This refers to Jesus as it is written in Philippians 2:10-11:
"That at the NAME of JESUS every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things in earth and things under the earth: and that every tongue
should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father"
Philippians 2:11 quotes from Isaiah 45:23. Note that the Father receives glory when EVERY KNEE confesses that
JESUS IS LORD. Ben, every knee would include Ultra-Orthodox Jews.
From Ben:
*************
>(Eddie)Keeping the law does not save us. We are saved by God's grace. We need the Messiah.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Keeping the law is the manifestation or proof of our belief and faith in the Father.
From Eddie:
**************
Actually, Ben, it is proof that we are yielding to the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) who was given to WRITE the Torah upon our
hearts and to TEACH us TRUTH (which is God's Torah or Word).
In Ezekiel 36:27 it is written:
"I will put MY SPIRIT within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgements"
In John 16:13 it is written:
"Howbeit when he, the SPIRIT OF TRUTH is come, HE will GUIDE you into all TRUTH ..."
What is Truth? In Psalm 199:142 it is written:
"The righteousness is an everlasting righteousness and thy TORAH is the TRUTH"
So, keeping the Law is a by-product of yielding to the Holy Spirit to TEACH us the Torah of God so that we can keep the SPIRIT of
the TORAH which brings LIFE and NOT the LETTER of the Torah which brings death (II Cor 3:6).
From Ben:
************
We need God, the Father, Ruler of the Universe. Through his manifestations: the Messiah(Torah), the Spirit
of God, the Shekinah(Presence of God), the Kivod(the Radiance of God), and the Bat Kol(the Voice of God), we become confident in(faithful)
and obedient to the Surpreme Being of the Universe.
From Eddie:
**************
The Messiah is more than a manifestation OF God. He IS God manifested IN the flesh. The Spirit of God is God Himself. God is
ECHAD. God is a COMPOUND UNITY. UNITY speaks of ONE in purpose. COMPOUND means a plurality in expression.
From Ben:
*************
John said in 1:17 that grace and truth came "through" Messiah, not from Messiah. This would indicate the Father was the originator of
Grace and Truth(torah). I ask you, was grace not here long before Messiah appeared in these latter times. Did not the Holy One provide
grace to the children of Israel when the "Golden Calf" was worshipped in the wilderness? The times when GOD provided grace (unmerited
favor)to his people prior to the advent of Messiah are legion.
From Eddie:
**************
Grace has ALWAYS existed because GOD IS GRACE. In addition, the MESSIAH has ALWAYS existed also. In Revelation 13:8 it is written:
" ... the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"
In Psalm 116:5 it is written:
"Gracious is the LORD ..."
Jesus is LORD (Philippians 2:10-11, Revelation 19:16)
From Ben:
************
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Matthew 15:24 "Messiah" said, "I was not sent except to the lost Sheep of the House of Israel." The House of Israel was of
course the ten tribes of northern Israel as opposes to the House of Judah or the Jews of today. Judah believed in God, was looking for
Messiah and tens of thousands (myrids) accepted God after Messiah's resurrection. The House of Israel was the one in real trouble.
From Eddie:
**************
Ben, actually, tens of thousands (myrids) accepted JESUS as Messiah after His resurrected. They ALREADY believed in God. In the
book of Acts 2:5, 14, 22, 24, 38, 41 it is written:
""And there were dwelling at Jerusalem JEWS, DEVOUT me, out of every nation under heaven ... But Peter standing up with the eleven, lifted
up his voice and said unto them ... Ye men of Israel hear these words, Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles
and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know ... Whom God has raised up having loosed the
pains of death ... Then Peter said unto them (the DEVOUT JEWS who were dwelling in Jerusalem) REPENT and be baptized every one of you
in the NAME of JESUS CHRIST for the REMISSION OF SINS ... then they that gladly received the word were baptized and that same day there
were added unto them about 3,000 souls"
So, Ben, you statement is once again in error according to the scripture. As in Acts 2, DEVOUT JEWS were SAVED when they
REPENTED and received JESUS as MESSIAH (they already believed in God) and 3,000 were saved.
From Ben:
************
Let me draw your attention to I Peter 1:20-21 where the apostle describes Messiah: (1) Ordination, (2) Manifestation, (3)
Glorification and (4) Purpose.
HE (Messiah) INDEED WAS FOREORDAINED (proginosko<4267>forseen) BEFORE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD, BUT WAS MANIFEST (phaneroo<5319>appeared
or shown self) IN THESE LAST TIMES FOR YOU(reader) WHO THROUGH HIM(Messiah) BELIEVE IN GOD(theos<2316>the supreme diety) WHO RAISED
HIM(Messiah) FROM THE DEAD (nekros <3498> a corpse) AND GAVE HIM (Messiah) GLORY (doxa<1391>dignity, honor, praise) SO THAT YOUR FAITH
AND HOPE ARE IN GOD(the surpreme diety).
This is the way that I understand the previous verses:
Even before the creation of the material world, there was the Torah (divine instructions or commandments)of the Surpreme Being. The
Surpreme Being said that the Messiah (Torah) would be manifested in the flesh in the latter days. The purpose of his appearance was to
facilitate a belief in the Surpreme Being. The Surpreme Being would perform many miraculous acts through his Messiah, who would be raised
from the dead by the power of the Surpreme Being. The Surpreme Being would then give Messiah glory, dignity, honor and praise so those
"called" of the Surpreme Being would become believers in the Surpreme Being. The purpose of the Messanic manifestation is to restore or
bring about belief in The Surpreme Diety, Ruler of the Universe.
=====================================================================
From Eddie:
**************
I answered this question above and showed you how you have misinterpreted this text to fit your doctrine that Messiah isn't
important in the redemptive plan of God.
From Ben:
************
> (Eddie) While everyone on this list should understand that the purpose
>of Hebraic Heritage Ministries is to restore the Jewish Roots of Christianity and to educate believers about the Sabbath, Festivals
>and the role of the Torah, IF we do ALL this but DISCARD MESSIAH then this is ALL vain religion and to put it bluntly, dung!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Eddie, I suspect in the end all the trappings of Christianity to put it bluntly, will be DUNG. Christianity is pagan to
the core and anyone who has done any study into the history of the early believers recognize this fact.
From Eddie:
**************
Your statement is an example of the UNBALANCE among some of those who are embracing their Hebraic Roots. Some become
"Anti-Christian and Anti-Messiah" as you are presenting.
I recognize that there has been paganism mixed with Christianity. But Christianity is NOT pagan to the CORE. It only has
certain aspects of paganism. Have you considered how the Orthodox Jews have errored also ?? Have you considered how they place the
ORAL TORAH ABOVE the written Torah? Have you considered how they view Jesus in the Talmud as YESHU (which is a Hebrew acronym
which means 'may His name be forever blotted out of our remembrance') ?? Have you considered how Orthodox Judaism has brought
in the occultic aspects of the Zohar? Have you considered how the Chassidic Jews believe in reincarnation ?? Have you considered how
Rabbi Akiva proclaimed that Bar Kochba was Messiah? Have you considered how the Chassidic Jew were proclaiming that Rabbi
Scheerson was Messiah ?? Have you considered that Reform Jews do not accept that the Torah came from God? Have you considered that Reform
Jews don't believe in a personal Messiah? Have you considered that Reform Jews do not embrace the need for a rebuilt Temple? Would you
consider these beliefs saintly or pagan ??? Have you embraced your Jewish Roots to WORSHIP Orthodox Jews as saints ???
This is what I have been talking about in this newsgroup. We need to embrace our Hebraic Roots and realize that
Christianity has mixed paganism in it' s practices but so has Judasim and that if you REPLACE Messiah for Rabbinic Orthodox
Judaism while discarding who Messiah is and His role in the redemption then you are giving up your inheritance just like Esau.
Let's embrace our Hebraic/Jewish roots in BALANCE and allow it to ENHANCE and INCREASE our faith in Messiah NOT to replace it.
From Ben:
************
If you restore the Jewish roots of Christianity, won't you basically have early Judaism with a Jewish Messiah?
From Eddie:
***************
No, you will have a Jewish based faith and faith in the Messiah being led by the Holy Spirit WITHOUT man made traditions
as the Orthodox Jews have brought into the faith.
From Ben:
************
Christianity is a totally different religion than the Judaism of the early common era and a religion other than Torah is prohibited.
From Eddie:
**************
And so is Modern Judaism a different religion that the Judaism of the their forefathers. Even in Bible days, God sent the
prophets to tell the Jews who believed and worshipped the God of Israel to repent and follow the Torah but they refused to repent
becuase they already believed in the God of Israel (II Kings 17:13-15)
Ben, you and others seem to only be looking at one side of the coin. You seem to think that if you trash traditional
Christianity that this justifies automatically embracing Rabbinic Judaism. Please also examine Rabbinic Judaism and see how far they
have departed from the Torah of the Bible also.
From Ben:
************
Christianity is a religion about a Greco-Roman Messiah called Jesus.
From Eddie:
**************
No, Ben, Jesus is a Jewish Messiah. SOME things within Christianity has been put into a Greco-Roman context but that does
not make Jesus a Greco-Roman Messiah. AT LEAST, Christianity believes and knows that Jesus is Messiah. The same can't be said of
the corporate Jewish community.
I also ask you to look at Christianity in BALANCE and EMBRACE some of the SOLID TRUTHS that Christianity teaches.
You are throwing the baby out with the bath water.
From Ben:
************
Pagan myths and out right changes were subtley added to the commentaries of the apostles in order to distance the church from the
hated Jews and to appeal to a Roman world familiar with Greek Gods and religions. Messiah has become everything... to the exclusion of the
Father!!! Listen to the televangelist...the Father is no longer mentioned. It's Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. The original purpose of Messiah
was to bring about a belief in the Surpreme Being, Ruler of the Universe, not to become "the Universe."
From Eddie:
**************
Once again, Ben, you are in error. Why is Messiah everything? Because through His shed blood we have forgiveness of
sins and the salvation of our souls. There is NO OTHER name given among men where we MUST be saved (Acts 4:12). Jesus said that the
entire OT (or TeNaCH) speaks about HIM (Luke 24:44). In the VOLUME of the book it is written of Messiah (Psalm 40:7, Hebrews 10:7).
The GOAL of the Torah is to point to Messiah (Romans 10:4). Jesus sure didn't preach excluding the Father. We are to pray
to the Father IN THE NAME OF JESUS (John 15:16).
From Ben:
*************
I believe many scriptually sound Jews believe in Messiah: however, can you see them repeat the Shema, "Hear O'Israel the Lord your God, The
Lord is three!"
From Eddie:
**************
Ben, you know that the scriptures say that God is ECHAD and is a COMPOUND UNITY.
How come you haven't taken the same time listing all the error in Judaism and as a result of listing all the errors in Judaism
decide that you need to follow Christianity? You are looking at a one sided picture.
From Ben:
************
I could not imagine them giving their "Tithe" (scripturally a free will offering) to a church or priesthood which
says the "Law"(Torah)is dead and Israel has been surplanted!
From Eddie:
***************
Well, Ben, just because SOME in Christianity believes in replacement theology doesn't mean that ALL embrace it. Do you think
it makes sense that you use the fact that SOME in Christianity embrace replacement theology as just cause for you to embrace
Rabbinic Judaism and discard the role of the Messiah ???
From Ben:
*************
Can you see the Jew giving up Shabbat so that he and his family could worship
on the Mithric day of the Sun? How about him giving up the appointed times and festivals in the plan of the Surpreme Being for Christmas,
Ishtar and Halloween.
From Eddie:
**************
No, but can you see a Reform Jew leaving Torah study on going out to eat and eating Pork and shrimp? Well the Reform Jews in
my city do! Are you going to forsake your embracing of a "Jewish faith" when SOME Jews go to Shabbat and eat Pork and shrimp
afterward? Or declare at their Torah study that the Torah came from man?
Are you going to forsake Torah because Reform Jews believe that the Torah came from man and not God? Are you going to forsake
believing in the resurrection of the dead because Chassidic Jews believe in reincarnation? Are you going to embrace abortion and homosexuality
because reform Jews embrace these things?
Ben, please look at embracing your Jewish Roots in BALANCE.
From Ben:
************
Lastly, I can not see a scriptually knowledgable Jew ever believing the Messiah, the Holy Spirit and other
manifestations of the Holy One, are equal to the Surpreme Being, Ruler of the Universe.
From Eddie:
**************
I know many Jews on this newsgroup who believe that God is ECHAD and is a compound unity! What doctrine and whose doctrine are
you embracing ???
From Ben:
************
Salvation is from the Jews; not the Christians. The Jews long for the Messiah and await his return. They will be rewarded and will
eventually accept the Messiah, but their priorities will be in order and their worship will be directed to the Ruler of the Universe. This
Messiah they will come to accept will be radically different from that currently advocated by mainstream Christianity.
From Eddie:
**************
Well, Ben, you are right. MANY Jews will embrace the false Messiah. And yes, he is radically different than THE Jewish Messiah
who is Yeshua/Jesus. In Matthew 1:21 it is written:
"And she shall bring forth a son and shall call his name Jesus: for HE shall SAVE HIS PEOPLE (the Jews) from THEIR SINS"
Ben, I implore you to examine and be rooted and grounded in the scriptures and not the doctrines of men who while "exposing" the
paganism within Christianity, discard Messiah and embrace Rabbinic Judaism and worship Jewishness rather than the God of the Jews.
Eddie Chumney
----------
From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 1997 2:18 AM
To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Mess
From: peggy Jones
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com wrote:
>
> From: "Robert A. Hocker"
> To: "'heb_roots_chr@geocities.com'" <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
> Subject: RE: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
>
Hello Eddie,
I'm a little behind and have just had an opportunity to read the comments regarding this subject. I'd like to address this question with
a question.
Would we want to deny the gift of Yeshua to those he first came too?
We are told to pray. opt for praying that all see the truth through the promise that came and dwelt with us. It is not only a scriptural
question but a question of love. I want so very much for each of all G-d's created beings to feel, hear, see, and recognise the loving hand
of Yeshua. To be without HIM is to be only half. Our brothers and sisters are missing out on so much by not understanding. To hear the
loving words and the feel the guiding hand of the G-d that loved us so very dear that HE himself came that I may know everlasting life. This is
indeed paradise on earth. The shadow of things to come. We are told that there will be some that will not see until HIS return. I know it
won't stop us praying that revelation will not be withheld for the majority both Jew and Gentile. To do less would be a tragedy. We all
come from the same creator. We all are brothers and sisters. Would we want our loved ones to not experience this piece of heaven? no.
All will come to know the truth and will bow to the king of kings. There is a loving warning to those who choose not to do so. But we do have
free choice. Do we rejoice in those who deny? No! instead we cry.
G-d's word cannot be denied. The course is laid out. HE has told us what will be. We study to know. Is there a finite line drawn? Has HE told us
how many will not know truth in their lifetimes here? Within HIS words has HE charged us with Praying for those who are blind? Have we been
told to remember where we came from so that we would not look down upon others who are still there? Are we to lift our brother up? How can we
lift them up if we are above them or accept complacently the path that they have chosen. It is true that it is only the HOLY SPIRIT that
reveals- we do nothing of ourselves. But if we do nothing.....?
HE HIMSELF gave this newsgroup to learn from. hmmm can you feel HIS loving touch? I can. I enjoy HIS gift and have had the pleasure of being
on the outskirts as it was formed. I've Seen the miracles that HE used to bring this about. This newsgroup is reaching so many and drawing each
of us nearer to each other and to HIM and HIS truth. What a family we have that we can voice our opinions and understanding without being
judged in a bad light. Often we face Mainstream, uninformed and fearful, clergy who are offended if you ask certain questions regarding HIS word.
This family I have been given is a gift unimaginable and unexpected. Let's all praise the HOLY ONE for HIS sacrifice and HIS gifts and that
all will come to know and enjoy TRUTH and the person of Yeshua intimately. Our prayer's are heard and enjoyed. They can and do move the
heart of G-d.
Peggy
**************************************************************************
From: Daryl Weaver
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
So, what is the fate of the Jews? I've often wondered.....
>
>Obviously, the messianic Jews will be raptured with the Church, but What about those Jews who died prior to Jesus' resurrection?
>
If they had faith in the coming Messiah they will be resurrected to eternal life. We are told that the dead in Messiah
will rise FIRST ( I Thess 4:16-17)
If they are unbelievers, the will have to wait until after the 1,000 years when God will judge all flesh who have ever
lived on planet earth.
>
>What about the Jews SINCE Jesus' resurrection who died without Christ?
>
According to Acts 4:12, salvation is based upon faith in Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah. The Orthodox Jews, Peter, Stephen and Paul
didn't present that the Jews didn't need to believe in Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah.
>
>What about those Jews who are alive at the second coming? Will they remain as Mississionaries during the tribulation?
>
During the tribulation, they will have an opportunity like all those on the planet earth to accept Yeshua/Jesus
as Messiah. In the Jewish Festivals, you are judged on Rosh HaShanah which is the day of the resurrection of the dead. You are sealed on
Yom Kippur (which is the day when Yeshua will return at His second coming).
>
>Probably "elementary" questions, but I'd love to know your opinions.
>
>(BTW...Thanks for the wonderful ministry represented by this group. I am most impressed with the love you all express to one another...even
>when you disagree!!! I hope you realize what a testimony lies here--a testimony to jews, gentiles, saved and lost. G-D bless you all.)
>
*************************************************************************
From: James
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
Eddie,
I am having a great time reading through the book of Romans since it deals a lot with the law and grace and Jews and Gentiles. There are a
lot of answers in that book (as well as the rest of the Bible!). I agree that Jews need to accept Jesus as the Messiah. I read chapter
11 last night about the ingrafted branches and about all Israel will be saved. I also read the footnotes which, like me, say that Jesus is
*the* way of salvation.
According to the footnotes I read, there is no deviation from the bottom line of Jesus is the only way, but there are different theories in the
footnotes as to what the rest of the chapter means -- Will there be a world awakening where the nation of Israel is saved or is this
referring to present Jews who have accepted Jesus as Messiah?
From Eddie:
***************
There is coming a NATIONAL (corporate) day of salvation for the Jewish people at large and the nation of Israel.
In Isaiah 66:7-9, it lists TWO births. The first birth is BEFORE birthpangs. The second birth is AFTER birthpangs. It reads:
"BEFORE she travailed, she bought forth, BEFORE her pain came, she was delivered with a man child. Who has heard of such a thing? who
has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in ONE DAY? or shall a NATION be BORN at ONCE? For AS SOON AS ZION
travailed, she brought forth her children.
It is a Jewish teaching that Messiah will come with a "travail" or "birthpangs" to the Jewish birthday. In Hebrew, this is
called the "Chevlai Shel Mashiach" or the "Birthpangs of the Messiah".
How/Why a birth BEFORE travail and a birth AFTER travail? Because there are TWO comings of the Messiah. In the first coming, the
travail happened AFTER Messiah came (the Temple was destroyed in 70 C.E. (Common Era) or A.D. During the second coming, you will have
travail FIRST (the tribulation period) and then Messiah will return (for AS SOON AS Zion) travailed she gave birth.
It seems that this nation day of salvation happens during the much prophecied Gog and Magog invasion of Israel in Ezekiel 38-39.
Ezekiel 36-37 describes the Jewish people returning back to the land of Israel after being scattered among the nations. They arose
and formed an army of people but had no "breathe" in them. These "bones" came to life physically but not spiritually (had no breathe
in them). The modern day state of Israel was formed by SECULAR Zionists. They arose physically but not spiritually. Later, God
tells Ezekiel to prophecy to the wind (Holy Spirit) and put "breathe" into them. This is a SPIRITUAL revival.
In Ezekiel 37:15-28, you have the regathing of TWO STICKS (the house of Israel (a type of Christianity) and the house of Judah
(Judaism) returning back from the nations to the land of Israel. Then in Ezekiel 38-39, you have the battle of Gog and Magog. In Ezekiel
40-48 is the Temple of the Messianic Age.
It is AFTER the battle of Gog and Magog that the nation of Israel are SANCTIFIED and enter into an eternal covenant with God.
So, there is a coming CORPORATE national day of salvation for the Jewish people and for the Jewish people who live in the land
of Israel. That DOES NOT mean that 100% of the Jews will accept Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah but as a corporate nation, they will.
>
>Thatchapter has a lot in it. If you could oblige me, I would be interested in getting your insight to Romans 11. Thanks.
>
>
>In Christ,
>Jamie
>
Romans 11 talks about the FULL RESTORATION of "Israel" and the mystery of the Gentile being "grafted" into the root.
We worship the GOD OF ISRAEL. ISRAEL is the name that God gave to JACOB after He wrestled with God. Israel is a term for
ALL 12 TRIBES NOT just the Jewish people.
In Luke 1:33, it tells us that Yeshua/Jesus will rule over the "house of Jacob" (ALL 12 TRIBES) forever. In order for this
to be so, ALL 12 TRIBES need to be regathered and seen as the nation of Israel. ISRAEL (ALL 12 TRIBES) would be a term to describe those
who are "natural branches" (the Jewish people) and those "grafted in" or the non-Jewish believer.
The regathering of God's people into one people is BEGINNING to happen. In the most recent years, MANY Jews are
receiving Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah and MANY non-Jews are discovering the role of the Torah and the Hebraic/Jewish roots of their faith. In
the fullness of time, this will result in the fulfillment of (Ezekiel 37:15-28) and Romans 11.
Then, "all Israel" will be saved (Romans 11:25-26)
Eddie Chumney
*************************************************************************
----------
From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 1997 2:19 AM
To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Mess
From: Ken du Plessis
To: <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
From Eddie:
**************
FYI, Ken is Jewish and is a believer in Jesus as Messiah but has converted to Orthodox Judaism.
From Ken:
*************
Dear Eddie,
>
>Further to our previous correspondence. I have been following your postings with interest.
>
>You talk about a "discussion group"? Where and how do we participate in this group?
>
You send a note to this newsgroup e-mail address: (heb_roots_chr@geocities.com)
>
>I do not know if you refer to your postings which I receive and am enlisted
>for, as a "discussion group"? This would be a misnomer, as I find it a
>one-sided discussion between yourself and "participants"?
>
>I would then also presume that you simply use those "participants"
>whose writings suite your choice? This is the reason why I have not
>"joined" your one-sided discussions yet - and I would really like to,
>especially on the above subject.
>
>So please help me right if I am wrongly analyzing matters
>
>
>I must say that I am staggered by the "culture" of your "Hebr. Roots"
>organization, firstly, because it is so one-sided - and this is very
>un-Jewish/Hebraic. You seem to rule it like the Pope - unless I am
>missing out on a mature open discussion somewhere in your
>association.
>
From Eddie:
***************
Well, sir, you have only been on the newsgroup for about a week or two weeks. Obviously, you are making a judgment without
having the opportunity to give time to examine how this newsgroup is conducted.
Yes, this is a moderated newsgroup. The reason is very simple. I have been subscribed to newsgroups on the Internet that
have been a waste of my time. People on the "fringes" usually dominate the discussions and the discussion seem to drift and drift.
On top of this, you end up getting so many e-mail messages that it wastes valuable time in your day and it becomes useless and
meaningless to stay subscribed to the newsgroup. So, I have unsubscribed from all the newsgroup's that I have joined over the
past two years.
This newsgroup is limited to usually a max a 10 messages four times a week. This gives the members adequate amount of
information to read, discuss and study while also allowing them three days a week to rest and not receive newsgroup e-mail.
The retention rate on this newsgroup is VERY, VERY high. That is because the members embrace the way that I moderate the
newsgroup. I keep the discussions and various topics flowing without getting sidetracked and allowing "fringe" opinions to dominate the
newsgroup discussions. Also, I allow a variety of opinions to be voiced on the newsgroup and we discuss these different issues and I
allow members to give their comments and they are posted. I even post comments from members that I don't agree with. Sometimes, questions
are referred to other members of the newsgroup. However, for the benefit of our members to limit the amount of newsgroup e-mail they
receive in a day and in a week, not every posting get's distributed to the newsgroup. If this was done, members might get upto 50 e-mail
messages a day and defeat the purpose of the newsgroup. So, your observations and conclusions aren't quite correct.
>
>Secondly, because it is so terribly "Christian" - and you seem to defend
>the "Christian" culture of your organisation very protectively. There
>cannot be a "Christian Judaism" impossible, because they are two totally
>opposing theologies.
>
Well, that is because man has mingled with the incorruptable word of God. Historical Christianity has mixed paganism with the faith
in the God of Israel while at the same time holding onto GENUINE BIBLICAL DOCTRINE and historical Judaism has instituted much and
many man-made doctrines also. So, it is two different religions today because the historical leaders over the years were at odds with
each other and attemped to make it so.
In Ezekiel 37:15-22 tells us that the day is coming when the God of Israel won't be worshipped according to two different
religions anymore. The Jewish people will recognize that Yeshua/Jesus is Messiah and Christians will begin to embrace the Torah. They will
have ONE KING over them and embrace the TRUE Messiah (Ezekiel 37:22) and KEEP the Torah of God (Ezekiel 37:23)
In Jeremiah 50:4, God speaks to the "House of Israel" (Christianity) and the "House of Judah" (Judaism) and in verse 6 it says"
"MY PEOPLE have been lost sheep. Their shepherds (Christian leaders) and (Jewish Rabbi's) have caused them to go astray ..."
You seem to be examing the historical truth of incorporating ungodly and unbiblical things into the worship of the God of Israel
as only being done by Christianity when Judaism is just as guilty. I implore you to examine this issue with an open mind and an honest
heart. I have listed SOME of the errors within Judaism on previous e-mail messages which you received. Apparently, you ignored these
facts.
>
>A Messianic Judaism, yes. But again, if we could
>speak of a Jewish Messianism and a Christian Messianism, they are miles
>apart. You seem to favour a Christian Messianic Judaism of sorts - as long
>as the term ' Christian' remains. But I am afraid, that makes it
>NON-Hebraic, NON-Jewish.
>
I don't think I understand the definitions of your terms. The Bible is a Jewish book. But modern day Judaism has departed from
the Jewishness of the Bible and the worship of the God of Israel as He intended also. Have you ever read the Old Testament? THE message
throughout the entire Old Testament was that God sent prophets to speak to the nation of Israel that THEY were violating the Torah but
they would not consider this to be so because they saw themselves as "the people of God" so the prophets that God sent to them they ignored.
In II Kings 17:13-15 it is written:
"Yet the Lord testified against Israel, and against JUDAH, by ALL the PROPHETS, and by all the seers saying, Turn ye from your evil ways
and KEEP my commandments and my statutes, according to all the TORAH which I commanded your fathers and which I sent to you by my servants
the prophets. Notwithstanding they would not hear, but hardened their necks, like the neck of their fathers, that did not believe in the
Lord their God. And they rejected his statutes and his covenant that he made with their fathers, and his testimonies which he testified
against them: and they followed vanity, and became vain, and went after the heathen round about them, concerning whom the Lord had
charged them, that they should not do like them"
Now, if you would have asked the people if they were keeping the Torah and following the God of Israel they would have
said, "Of course, we are worshipping the God of Israel" but God said that they weren't keeping His Torah.
>
>No measure of Judaism could possibly turn Christianity into
>Judaism - and if it could, you would be left with
>Judaism, not Christianity!
>
Well, sir as long as you look at things from the perspective of two different religions then you will want to choose
one or the other and thus be confused. Yeshua is the JEWISH Messiah yet the "Christians" believe in the JEWISH Messiah and mainstream
Judasim does not. So, is believing in a JEWISH Messiah "Jewish" or "Christian" ??
I am engaged to be married to an Ultra-Orthodox Jew who believes that Yeshua/Jesus is Messiah. When we are married, we will
keep the sabbath and the Biblical Festivals but not Christmas and Easter. Our son will be circumcised the 8th day and will have a
Bar Mitzvah yet he will believe that Yeshua/Jesus is Messiah. Does this make us "Jewish" or "Christian" ??? Even though that my
wife-to-be believes that Yeshua/Jesus is Messiah, she will continue to live her life as an Ultra-Orthodox Jew. Does that make her
"Jewish" or "Christian" ??? She will NOT "convert" to Christianity and I will not "convert" to Judaism. Yet, we will BOTH embrace the
Jewish Messiah and embrace our Jewish roots. We will LIVE our faith. THIS is a Jewish concept.
As long as you see "Christianity" and "Judaism" as two different religions, you wlll be confused. If you embrace
"Christianity" or "Judaism" you will be confused. What you are supposed to embrace is Biblical truth as revealed by the Holy Spirit.
When you do this, you will realize the errors in Christianity and Judaism and the truths within Christianity and Judaism. Since
man-made doctrine is incorporated into Judaism and Christianity, the challenge is to discard the man-made doctrine and embrace Biblical
truths some of which are found in Christianity and some in Judaism. For this reason, it is unthinkable if you believe that Yeshua/Jesus
is Messiah to "convert" to Judaism when they don't even believe in their own JEWISH Messiah and have incorporated so many man-made
doctrines into their own "religion".
>
>It is a fact that Christianity came 2 - 3 centuries AFTER Messiah. Those
>first Messianics knew NOTHING of Christianity (which only came 300 years
>later!), They were JEWISH Sects!
>
This is true that the believers in Yeshua/Jesus were considered sects of Judaism. That is why when the non-Jews are
returning back to their Hebraic Roots they are embracing the same beliefs as these "Jewish sects" that being: Yeshua is Messiah and
keeping the Sabbath and Biblical holidays. If you don't like the word "Christian" then call us a sect of Judaism then. As long as you
allow yourself to get hung up on the word "Christian" then you will be confused. Every person is called to be a BIBLE BELIEVER and have
faith in the GOD OF ISRAEL and in the JEWISH MESSIAH and be led by the Ruach HaKodesh / HOLY SPIRIT to reveal the truths of the
scriptures not "join" a religion whether it be "Christianity" or "Judaism".
>
>YESHUA was an ORTHODOX JEW, with a JEWISH mother, family, nation and RELIGION.
>
This is true. However, modern Rabbin Judaism has departed from this JEWISH religion that Yeshua and His disciples
lived and taught. So, the challenge is to embrace Biblical truths founded in a Jewish book called the Bible and not to embrace
ritualistic modern rabbinic Judaism.
>
>The original Faith/System was
>based on the 'heavenly' System of God. It was shown to Moses who had to
>proclaim it to his nation and thru them, to the world. YESHUA practised
>this same religion and took an oath never to change an iota of it!
>Christianity changed it ALL - 300 years later. It is THIS Faith, surely,
>that we have to go back to - and that is vastly devoid of any and all
>Christian dogma.
>
Sir, this is exactly what the GLOBAL Hebraic Roots Movement is all about. We are returning back to our Jewish Roots not to the
man made doctrines of modern day rabbinic Judaism. BUT, we also recognize some of the ROCK SOLID BIBLICAL truths that are taught in
Christianity that Judaism has rejected. These rock solid truths, we still embrace BECAUSE we are BIBLE BELIEVERS.
>
>I must agree with Ben, that Christianity is PAGAN to the core.
>
Well, then that means that you are ignorant of history and ignorant of understanding the diversity within Christianity and the
various beliefs within it. This ignorance has distorted your understanding of what is "Christianity".
>
>Judaism is tainted, certainly, but, it is tainted round the Truth of YHVH.
>
Tainted and truth can't be used in the same sentence to describe the condition of the same entity. Christianity may be
tainted but it worships the God of Israel also. Please recognize this fact.
>
>while Christianity is tainted round the Lies, deceit and anti-Semitic culture of Paganism - and that is quite a difference!
>
Well, you are only looking at one aspect of historical Christianity. Within Christianity today, there are those who believe
in replacement theology and those who believe that it is unbiblical. So, by saying that Christianity believes in replacement theology is
not an accurate statement. To use the same logic, since I have fellowshipped with Reform Jews for the last three years and I KNOW
that they DON'T believe that the Torah came from God, DON'T believe in a personal Messiah, DON'T believe that it is necessary for a Jew
to return back to the land of Israel, DON'T believe in rebuilding a future temple. DON'T believe in keeping the dietary laws YET the mask
themselves as being a "JEWISH RELIGION"
Friend, THIS is paganism and spitting in the face of the God of Israel and His Torah in no uncertain terms. So, I can then make
the statement that Judaism doesn't believe in the Torah. So, why do you want to believe and follow a religion that doesn't embrace the
Torah ??? Didn't the JEWISH Jesus keep the Torah? Then, why doesn't Judaism and why do you follow a religion that fails to embrace the
Torah ???
>
>Now your organization correctly search and return to Judaism and its purer
>customs, but then you seem to defend your pagan origin - Christianity.
>
Well, my friend this is a statement of ignorance. We have had MUCH discussion on this newsgroup that Christmas and Easter are of
pagan origin and need to be discarded for the Biblical Festivals.
"Christianity" is not pagan but some of the beliefs within it has come from paganism. The SAME can be said of Judaism and even
Orthodox Judaism. Chassidic Jews believe in reincarnation. Is this Biblical ??? Reincarnation is pagan. So, which "religion" embraces
paganism ????
By ONLY seeing "Christianity" as pagan, your mind has been darkened to the historical and religious faults of Judaism also.
>
>I do not know of ONE item of Truth that Christianity has - except that God
>exists and that the Messiah died for the reconciliation of the world.
>(Reconciliation to what? To Judaism and the Jewish God with a Jewish
>custom/system/religion/Law and the Promise of a future JEWISH World State).
>
No, reconciled to have FELLOWSHIP with the God of Israel with a contrite heart. But, if "Jews" do not accept the
reconciliation that the Messiah brought then they are not reconciled even if they do all those "Jewish" things.
By saying that Christianity does not have ONE item of truth within it, you must be awfully blinded to the truth of the
scriptures, don't have a personal relationship with the God of Israel or are unlearned and ignorant because your statement is a statement of
ignorance.
>
>For the rest, Christianity stands guilty of changing the character and ONLY
>Identifying measure of the True God, namely His ONENESS (The Shema) into a
>multiplicity of individuals (and you follow on - no measure of re-naming
>this a "compound unity" - a contradiction in terms itself) will comply with
>Gods UNIQUE quality of being ONE - ONE - ONE -ONE!!
>
Well, sir, you are showing your ignorance of Jewish history again. It has been documented EVEN BY JEWS that the Rabbi's changed
the "belief" system of Judaism to PURPOSELY convey that Yeshua/Jesus is not Messiah. Have you ever studied Rabbinical writings and
commentaries BEFORE they were changed by the relatively speaking "modern" rabbi's.
It seems like you are REPEATING what they have CHANGED instead of being a learned student and finding out these things
yourself. For example, ANCIENT Rabbinical writings identify Isaiah 53 as speaking about the Messiah. This interpretation was
later changed by later Rabbi's and their changed interpretation is now used in defense against Isaiah 53. The same can be said for the SHEMA.
>
>Sorry to say, neither Ben nor you have the Truth on this:>)
>
>Yes, how audacious of me? But, if you sincerely and honestly wish to
>discuss the matter, I would like to do it thru your "closed circuit" if
>necessary - but, why not open to all who wish to participate. Surely, you
>may still control bad language, insults, etc?
>
>
>Hebrew Roots can NEVER be Hebraic with even a HINT of a
>multiplicity of God(S).
>
>
>This is the ONE distinguishing factor. The other is the Torah, customs
>and rules/testimonies.
>
According to modern Rabbi's who have CHANGED the interpretation of the SHEMA on PURPOSE to distance themselves from
Yeshua/Jesus being the Messiah then it is true that the Shema is a "distinguishing factor". But, discarding what the rabbi's have
CHANGED, there is no contradiction. According to the Bible, God is ECHAD which is ONE GOD who is a compound unity.
>
>The other things Christianity stand guilty of changing is: - The ONLY Name whereby man can be saved (and that is NOT Jesus!!)
>
Well, friend, I have given SCRIPTURE after SCRIPTURE and even the words of Yeshua/Jesus HIMSELF to show that "Christianity" didn't
"change" this but it is BIBLICAL TRUTH. ORTHODOX JEWS in the BIBLE proclaimed that salvation is ONLY by the name of Yeshua/Jesus.
Unless of course you don't believe what the Orthodox Jews taught in the NT and consider the NT as fables.
>
>- The True Identity of YESHUA, viz. that HE IS YHVH, THE ONE AND ONLY GOD!
>(Manifestations of YHVH are NOT "OTHER" Beings! They are just that:
>MANIFESTATIONS OF THE ONE AND INDIVISIBLE YHVH. How on earth can the
>Spirit (essence/power/presence) of YHVH be another 'Person'?????????? It
>is simply just that: the Spirit of YHVH!!!
>
I have never proclaimed that he is another "person". But God, who is a SPIRIT (John 4:24) allowed His WORD to became
FLESH and dwell among men (John 1). I know that you can't explain this with your limited mind but you also can't explain
how you were born from the egg of a woman and the sperm of a man. How LOGICALLY can a egg and a sperm become a human being?
>
>- They changed His Birth date
>
True. We have also discussed this on this newsgroup.
>
>- His teachings about the Law
>
True. We have also discussed this on the newsgroup.
>
>- His earthly nationality tothatof a christian
>
Well, a 'Christian" is a man-made word. He is the JEWISH Messiah and I believe in the Jewish Messiah and I worship the God of
Israel. Now, do you want to call me "Christian" or "Jewish" ??? You are too much hung up on words rather than having a heart relationship
with the Creator of heaven and earth. If you had a HEART relationship you wouldn't be getting tripped up by words which are only semantics.
>
>- His Promises to Juda that He would NEVER cast them away
>- I could go on for hours. The only thing they have right, is that He died
>for the sins of the world
>
This is true also.
>
>- they changed ALL other things, much of which you are restoring - bless you.
>
Well, thank you. Have you finally seen the light that I am addressing these "issues" that you have raised while keeping people
in BALANCE and still recognizing the TRUTHS within '"Christianity" that "Judaism" rejects !!!
>
>But why are you not prepared to restore the BASIC VITAL Tenants of the
>Original Hebrew Faith (those mentiomed above)?
>
Well, sir, another statement of ignorance. I do embrace the things mentioned above. Perhaps you have never read my two books,
"The Seven Festivals of the Messiah" and "Who is the Bride of Christ?" which was written to underline the truths and SIGNIFICANCE
of embracing our Hebraic / Jewish Roots.
>
>Now you will know why I joined Orthodox Judaism:
>
I don't other than you have rejected Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah. If that is the case, then your "conversion" has been done in
vain. Read BOTH the OT and NT and it will tell you that "conversion" takes place in the HEART not by joing a religious belief system that
incorporates man-made doctrine whether it be "Christianity" or "Judaism"
>
>As "tainted" as you wish to describe them, believe me, these Basic tenants they have correct.
>
I am glad that you said BASIC because this is truth. But the BASIC tenants of Christianity regarding the Messiah, his role and
sin and death are correct also notwithstanding the paganism that has been brought into Christianity.
>
>The Revelation of YESHUA was withheld from them as a
>nation upon the Decision and Purpose of YHVH - let us not dare judge that
>(Romans 11). Their time will come as per Zech. 12:10 (at/after His Return)
>and please note, that this scripture states that it is YHVH Whom they have
>pierced and will look upon (that is, if you restore the Sacred Name for
>"Lord" in this scripture).
>
And please note that the one who stands upon the Mount of Olives in (Zechariah 14:4) is Yeshua/Jesus as told by the angels
when Yeshua/Jesus ascended up into heaven (Acts 1:9-12). When He then returns back to the earth and set His feet on the Mount of Olives,
Yeshua will be KING over all the earth (Zechariah 14:9) because He returns as the KING of king and the LORD of lords (Revelation 19:16).
>
>I cannot understand why the culture of your movement is to strive for all
>things Hebraic, but you get hot under the collar when it comes to really
>embracing Judaism.
>
Because Judaism is also made up of man-made doctrines. We don't embrace JUDAISM we embrace the GOD OF JUDAISM. You must
not understand having a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with the God of Israel or else you wouldn't be confused.
>
>Beware - YHVH has not discarded them. *Read Ezek 20 and
>the rest of the Bible.
>
This is a true statement but also remember that FIRST they repent of their ways. FIRST comes repentance then comes God's
blessing upon His people and salvation unto them.
>
>I do not wish to apply the warning of Revelations, regarding "those that
>call themselves Jews but are not" to your group. I am not the Judge.
>However, I urge you to seriously consider and analyse this Divine warning
>with respect to your own religious culture.
>
Well, you are accurately quoting a scripture but do you know what it means ??? That is the question.
>
>If you rebel against my reasoning, then you must ask yourself "Where am I
>leading you wrong? By referring you to your proclaimed Mission of
>returning to your "Hebrew Roots"? Do I want you to be too much
>Hebrew/Jewish?
>
No, but you are embracing JEWISHNESS rather than the God of the Jews. You are embracing JEWISHNESS rather than the Jewish
Messiah. We are returning to the "Hebrew Roots" of the God of Israel, as taught by the Jewish Messiah and as revealed by the Ruach
HaKodesh. This is different than embracing man-made rabbinic Judaism.
>
>It will be interesting to see if this letter reaches your discussion group
>- and if so, in what edited format.
>
I have allowed other to see how your views are OUT OF BALANCE so that our members can learn to embrace their Hebraic/Jewish
roots without doing so and being OUT OF BALANCE as are the positions that you are espousing.
>
>The Shalom of YHVH/YAHSHUA unto you
>Ken du Plessis (Ovadyah)
>
Eddie Chumney
************************************************************************
----------
From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Sent: Friday, July 11, 1997 2:34 AM
To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Mess
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
From: Randy Felton
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
Hi Eddie,
I just received your posting. The discussion you carried on is very interesting. Please keep the moderated format......there are some opinions
that I just am not interested in. Call me closed minded if you want but I don't have time to get caught up in fables and the mindless wanderings of
men. I applaud your patience and in depth responses. If someone wants an "open discussion" they are free to start one themselves. It seems there
are plenty of people who would want to tell you how to run your affairs but are not willing to do it themselves.
Thanks again for your hard work and attitude.
Shalom, Randy Felton
***********************************************************************
From: Sandi Brown
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com wrote:
>
> From: Ken du Plessis
> To: <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
> Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
>
> >From Eddie:
> **************
>
> FYI, Ken is Jewish and is a believer in Jesus as Messiah but has converted to Orthodox Judaism.
>
> >From Ken:
> *************
>
> Dear Eddie,
>
> >
> >Further to our previous correspondence.
> >I have been following your postings with interest.
> >
> >You talk about a "discussion group"? Where and how do we
> >participate in this group?
> >
>
> You send a note to this newsgroup e-mail address:
>
> (heb_roots_chr@geocities.com)
>
> >
> >I do not know if you refer to your postings which I receive and am
> >enlisted for, as a "discussion group"? This would be a misnomer,
> >as I find it a one-sided discussion between yourself and
> >"participants"?
> >
> >I would then also presume that you simply use those "participants"
> >whose writings suite your choice? This is the reason why I have
> >not "joined" your one-sided discussions yet - and I would really
> >like to, especially on the above subject.
> >
> >So please help me right if I am wrongly analysing matters
> >
>
Eddie,
If you are so one sided as it is alleged, why did you even post this?:)
I have been a member of this newsgroup since its went online and have always thought that those who disagreed where treated fairly and with
respect and consideration. I would like to paste a message from the Bnai-noach group to give a prime example of how one-sideness really
looks like.
Shalom,
Sandi
***********************************************************************
From: Gregory Richardson
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
I would like to make some observations on this question. Jesus [Yeshua] did not come to "start a new religion". Jesus spent
three and a half years teaching the spiritual application of Torah. The true faith has existed from creation. Many God-fearing
individuals have "walked with God [YHVH]" from Abel, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc., etc.
Jesus came to bring the Jews back to God. Judaism is not the religion of God as defined by Torah. If you doubt this statement, get a copy
of "The Jewish Book of Why". Ninety-five percent of this book is based upon superstition and not upon Torah. There are true gems of
wisdom and insight in the Talmud but most of it is superstition and the vain reasonings of men. This is why Jesus was so critical of the
religious leaders of his day; and things have not improved much since then. Check out some of the Jewish web pages that show you some of
their newsgroup discussions. It is a knit-picky religion at best.
Jesus came to his own, but his own knew him not. In Paul's letter to the Romans, he tells us that the advantage that the Jews have is that
the words of God were delivered to them (Rom 3:1-2). God used the Jews to preserve the word of God but their path has led away from Eden
just as the path of the Christian church has led away from Eden.
Yes! yes! yes! Jews do need to accept Jesus as Messiah because he is the way back to Eden. Christians, too, need to accept Jesus as
Messiah so that they can find the true meaning of Torah. It is not for nothing that Jesus is called the Word, for He is the embodiment of
Torah.
-Gregory R.
**********************************************************************
From: David Weiner
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Cc: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
Shalom Ken du Plessis
You have stated that you converted to Orthodox Judiasm. Thats like stating, "I live in America". However, which country and where North
America or South America?. I have lived with Orthodox Judiasm most of my life and I found out to be a so called Orthodix Jew, depends on
what your Rabbi tells you and what HIS definitions and translations on the Torah mean. Hassidic are Orthodox Jews, Labavatch are Orthodox
Jews. In my experience thru life I found out that all they do is argue as to who is the Messiah, when he will come and where is he now. By
stating that you are going to Orthodox Judiasm, decide which sect you will embrace, then completely immerise yourself in it. I guarantee you
in a short time you will go back to The Bible to find the True Roots of Judiasm. Please do not take offence to what I am writing,
"Orthodox Judiasm is Messianic Judiasm".
Boruch Hashem
David Ben Reuben
**********************************************************************
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