HHMI Newsgroup Archives

From: 	 heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Sent: 	 Thursday, July 03, 1997 1:37 AM
To: 	 Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup
Subject: Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Mess



From:          Liz
To:            heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com, heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject:       Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???

Thanks Eddie!  

Everyone will come to the Father through Jesus, but we must
understand that many of the Lord's "stiff necked people" will not be able to
recognize Him (in the holy scripture) until He has physically returned to
save them from total destruction.  I believe we are at present witnessing the
great outpouring of the Holy Spirit as prophesied would happen before the
rapture.  How else could we interprete what is happening through ministries
such as Eddie's?  This phenomenon commenced in the 60's and increases to this
day!  Praise be to God.  By the way, I came across a great resource yesterday
called "Christian Research Ministries" @ http://home.cwnet.com/crm/  

I also wanted to mention to both Eddie and Cheryle @ Haydid that I intend to
make an offering to both of your ministries in the near future.  The
knowledge and insight I have gained from both Hebraic Roots and Haydid has
been life altering and so life giving I'm am truly indebted.  Thank you.

Liz

*******************************************************************************
*

From:          Barbara DiGilio
Organization:  Mayim Hayim Ministry
To:                 heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject:        Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???]

Shalom Eddie, and all Rooters,

As to the question, "Do the Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah", I also would like to give an answer. However, before I do, please read
this chapter from my book, "So What Do You Think?", Todah. 

Who Locked Up Israel's Hearing?

Joseph, the beloved son of Israel, is a picture of Yeshua--a type of the Messiah. He suffered more than all the other children of Israel
and was the one most blessed by God. Joseph received pure grace from God's Hand from the pit to the throne. The Hand of God was on him at
all times. The Word never records one single sin in Joseph's life. The parallels are many, but I will not go into them here. What I do
want to point out is found in Genesis 42:24.

"And he turned himself about from them, and wept; and returned to them again, and communed with them, and took from them Simeon, and bound
him before their eyes."

Since we have discovered that Names (Shemology) are important and have significant meaning, now we find that they also have prophetic
implications. Simeon, as you recall, means "hearing".

"Shema," which shares the root of Simeon's name, is the title given to Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"  Over
and over again in God's Word, we are called to attention and to "hear". However, Israel as a whole has not heard the Word of the Lord
today. Her hearing has been locked up - bound!  In the story of Joseph, we see he locked up Israel's son, Simeon (hearing).

Isaiah, as well, was told that Israel could not hear or see. And later, Yeshua in the Gospels says that this scripture has been fulfilled.

"And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this
people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with
their heart, and convert, and be healed." Isaiah 6:9, 10

"And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall
see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed;
lest at any time they should see with their  eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted,
and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many
prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear,
and have not heard them." Matthew 13:14-17 (Mark 4:12; Luke 8:10; John 12:40; Acts 28:24-28)

The Apostle Paul brings the Gentiles attention to take note of Yahweh's part in this mystery (SOD, deeper meaning).  

"What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (According
as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this
day." Romans 11:7, 8

The Greek word for God is "theos" and when it appears in the text to denote the one true God, an article should be placed in front of it.
In II Corinthians 4:4, the article sits right in front of the word, which has been translated "god".  It should, therefore, be "God".  It
is God, the Father, the Almighty who has blinded their eyes.(1.)

George M. Lamsa's translation from the Aramaic Text is correct. He uses the capital "G" for God. This author does not agree with the late
George M. Lamsa's theology. However, his translation of the text is correct. 

"To those in this world whose minds have been blinded by God, because they did not believe, lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ,
who is the likeness of God, should shine on them." II Corinthians 4:4 (2.) 

In the book, The Life and Epistles of St. Paul, Rev. W. J. Conybeare, M.A., and Rev. J. S. Howson, D.D.  translate the verse as follows:

"Whose unbelieving minds the God of this World has blinded, and shut out glorious light of the glad tidings of Christ (Messiah), who is the
image of God."	   II Corinthians 4:4  (3.)

In a critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament, E. W. Bullinger reveals the Greek usage:  with the article
"theos" to denote "the God, the revealed God, the God of the Bible, and according to the context, may denote this God, our God. The
article marks the word as objective and definite, and also distinguishes the subject from the predicate." 

This may be difficult, but, if we compare scripture with scripture, we see it is He(Elohim)who did this and not Satan!  I do not find this
hard to understand at all. The Character of God is righteous and just. God allows many things for which we blame the devil. Is there hope for
Israel? YES!

"But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end." Isaiah 45:17

Other scriptures that support the understanding of God's ability to do as He wishes include: Mark 16:16; John 3:36; Romans 1: 21-28, 11:7, 8;
II Thessalonians 2:10, 11; Hebrews 10:30-31, 12:28-29.

Yes, God will allow wrath to come upon those who will not believe. These people or nations will not see or hear life, but only the wrath
of the Living God. God's purpose was so the Gentile would receive and be grafted into the commonwealth of Israel.

"Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision
in the flesh made by hands; That at the time ye were without Messiah, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the
covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:" Ephesians 2:11,12

Now, let us get back to our story.  After a set time, the corn ran out back in Canaan and Israel allowed Benjamin to go down into Egypt. We
do not know how long that took--it could have been a full two years. What we do know is that after Benjamin and the rest of Joseph's
brothers knew who he was, he tells them that there will still be five years more of famine.  (Genesis 45:11).

Upon Benjamin's arrival, Simeon is released from jail (Genesis 43:23). Hallelujah! There is a day when ALL Israel will be saved for they will
hear and see again!

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery (SOD), lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in
part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.  And so all Israel shall be saved:  as it is written, There shall
come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" Romans 11:25,26

You might say, "Well, this has to do with sight and not hearing." You are right! When Simeon was in jail, it was dark and his sight was
limited.  So you could say that Israel's hearing and sight were in bondage for a time unknown to us!

Also in Deuteronomy 33, The Blessing of Moses, we have the Sons of Israel listed as Moses blessed them in the following verses:  (6)
Reuben's blessings; (7) Judah; (8) Levi; (12) Benjamin; (13) Joseph, with his two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh; (18) Zebulun and Issachar;
(20) Gad; (22) Dan; (23) Naphtali; (24) Asher.

As we see here, there is no tribe of Simeon listed in Moses' Blessings? Why?  Could it be pointing to the loss of their "hearing"
son, Simeon? I believe it is because God is trying to show us a truth in His Word about one of Israel's sons and His people's hearing. It is
as if God is saying through Moses' Blessings, "I will bless all of you, but not Simeon (your hearing) until the fullness of the Gentiles
comes in and then I will restore your hearing and your sight."

Can you see the picture implied by the Shemology of Simeon's name and the scriptures?  Again and again, we can see how God's unique Word
silhouettes His plan.  Soon Yahweh-Rophe, the Healing God will restore full hearing and sight to Israel. I pray for that day.  How about you?

"Lord, Yeshua, may You release the people of Israel from their imprisonment. Cause them to see Who You Are and may they hear the true
Gospel; the one you brought to them from one who has a heart for your people.  Amen!"   

So, What Do You Think?

Footnotes: 1. Holmes, Gene.  Scripture Explanations I, Lesson #4. Sweetwater Bible College, Glendale, Arizona 85306.
 2. This author does not agree with the late George M. Lamsa's theology.  However, his translation of the text is correct.
 Lamsa, George M.  Holy Bible From the Ancient Eastern Text  (Translation from the Aramaic of the Peshitta), 1933.
 3. Rev. W. J. Conybeare, M.A. and Rev. J.S. Howson, D.D.  The Life  and Epistles of St. Paul, (London, New York, and Bombay: Longman, Green
and Co., 1896), 446 & 447. ***************************** 

So Rooters, I believe that the foretold blindness that God would cause to happen to Israel, should cause the non-Jews to fall on their faces every day 
and pray for them! 

I will not judge if my brother is Saved or not, I'm not God. Nor will I be a fruit inspector! My own fruit took many many seasons before it
brought forth good fruit for the Lord. Even though our Lord tells us, you will know them by there fruits, we should not go around picking at
the fruit. 

No man comes to the Father but through Yeshua, Yes, this is truth! However, until God gives all of us divine eyesight, we should not
judge. Messiah can reveal Himself at any hour to that man or woman, or child. He did it for me, and He is no respecter of persons. So to
answer this straight foward question, Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah? The only honest answer is YES, as Eddie has stated over, and
over again. God bless you Eddie. 

Shalom, Barbara  (A Jew who Messiah found, out on a limb!)

******************************************************************************

From:          rose
To:            heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject:       Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???


> 
> From:          Cheryl Guy
> To:            heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
> Subject:       Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???
> 
> If the Jews do not need to accept Yeshua as Messiah, then why did Yeshua tell Nicodemus (who was a jew) "Ye must be born again"?
> 
> Cheryl
> 
> ********************************************************************
> 

Dear Eddie and Cheryl,

I think that the correct English translation of what Yeshua said to Nicodemus is, "you must be born from above,"  This has an entirely
different connotation from the typical Protestant view of what "born again" means.

From Eddie:
**************

The CONCEPT is the same.  Being "born from above" is associated with the Jewish concept of MIKVAH. In the book, "Waters
of Eden" written by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan, an Orthodox Jew, who does not believe that Yeshua/Jesus is Messiah, he writes this concept.

"After a Jew has performed a Mikvah, he goes through a change of status and is regarded as if he is BORN AGAIN"  (I paraphrased the 
statement as I do not have the book in front of me at the time)

Mikvah is seen as being a "change in status".  Therefore, when Yeshua/Jesus told Nicodemus that he needed to be "born from above" 
or "born anew", Nicodemus would IMMEDIATELY associate this wording as being associated with Mikvah. 

The "typical Protestant view" says that when you receive Jesus as Messiah (become born again) you have a "change of status" and you
go from being a sinner condemned to hell to be a child of God and a member of His family.

So, there is no contradiction with what is taught in the church about being "born again" and the Jewish concept of Mikvah. 
Being "born again" is a "change of status" and this is EXACTLY what the Orthodox Jews teach that a Mikvah represents.

From Rose:
*************        

But let me reverse my point to make a little clearer what I am trying to say.  When we as gentiles accepted Jesus as our Saviour, wasn't it
understood that we had accepted His Father and the Holy Spirit also? We can be baptized in the name of Jesus - or in the name of the
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it is one and the same - for they are One and the same.

From Eddie:
**************

Baptism has NOTHING to do with salvation. Baptism (Mikvah) is an OUTWARD expression of our faith AFTER we are saved. This is pictured 
for us in God's redemption of the children of Israel from Egypt. FIRST, they were REDEEMED by the BLOOD of the lamb when they applied 
the blood upon their doorposts (which spiritually is our hearts). THEN, God took them through the Red Sea (a type of baptism). This 
came AFTER they were REDEEMED.

From Rose:
**************

The G-d of Israel lives in the heart of a real Jew.  They have not rejected their G-d.  They simply did not recognize Him in the flesh,
that is all.  They have already ACCEPTED their Messiah, but as a nation, will not RECOGNIZE Him until He returns as "King of kings and
L-rd of lords."  

From Eddie:
**************

Most recently, the Lubivitcher Chassidic Jews were proclaiming the Rabbi Schneerson was the Messiah. Rose, if the Orthodox Jews
ALREADY have ACCEPTED their Messiah then WHY were they proclaiming Rabbi Schneerson as Messiah?

In 135 C.E. (A.D), was a Jewish revolt against Rome. Bar Kochba was the military leader in the Jewish revolt against Rome. 
Rabbi Akiva (a WELL RESPECTED Rabbi among the Orthodox Jews today) proclaimed that Bar Kochba was Messiah. If the Jews had already
ACCEPTED their Messiah as you claim then WHY did Rabbi Akiva proclaim Bar Kochba as Messiah ?? If Rabbi Akiva saw God as Messiah then WHY 
proclaim Bar Kochba as Messiah ???

Reform Jews DO NOT believe in a personal Messiah. To them, "Messiah" is a state of condition in the world. Have they ALREADY 
accepted their Messiah?          

If the Jews have already ACCEPTED their Messiah, then WHY did Yeshua/Jesus tell Nicodemus (a ruler of the Jews) that he NEEDED 
to be "born from above or born anew or born again" ???

If the Jews have already ACCEPTED their Messiah then WHY does Paul (a JEW) write in I Corinthians 1:23:

"We preach Christ crucified; unto the Jews a stumblingblock ..."

If the Jews have already ACCEPTED their Messiah then WHY did Yeshua/Jesus say in Matthew 21:42-43:

"Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the Scriptures, the stone (Jesus) which the builders (a reference to the TORAH and the 
Jewish people and the TORAH meaning "instruction or foundation) REJECTED the same is become the head of the corner: this is the 
Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes?"

If the Jews have already ACCEPTED their Messiah the why did Yeshua/Jesus reveal to a TORAH OBSERVANT JEW (Paul) that Paul 
was persecuting HIM and revealed to him that He (Jesus) was Messiah?

If the Jews have already ACCEPTED their Messiah, then WHY did Peter preach on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 that Yeshua/Jesus 
was Messiah TO JEWS and 3,000 Jews were saved ???

Did Jesus lie when He said in John 14:6:

"... I am the way, the truth and the life: NO MAN comes unto the Father BUT BY ME"

WHY did Yeshua/Jesus say in John 8:56:

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see MY DAY: and he saw it and was glad"

In Acts 4:12 it is written:

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is NONE OTHER NAME under heaven given among men whereby we MUST be saved"

Is this scripture not true ???

Rose, I LOVE the Jewish people. I am going to marry an Ultra-Orthodox Jew. But before God allowed us to get married, HE 
first SAVED her and she accepted Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah.

From Rose:
***************

Therefore, it is hairsplitting to say that they have not accepted Yeshua when they have already accepted Him in the sacred
Tetragrammaton.  Isn't He One and the Same?  

From Eddie:
**************

In I Corinthians 12:3 it is written:

" ... NO MAN speaking by the Spirit of God (the Ruach HaKodesh) calls Jesus accursed: and that NO MAN can say that Jesus is Lord 
except by the Holy Spirit"

Rose, do you know that the Orthodox Jews refer to Yeshua/Jesus in the Talmud as YESHU (which is a Hebrew acronym which 
means 'May his name forever be blotted out of our remembrance').

" ... no man speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed (YESHUA) ..."

Can Jews call Jesus a curse and still ACCEPT their Messiah as you say ??

From Rose:
**************   

The Scriptures do not say that one has to recognize Him - but to accept Him. Satan recognized Him - and the thief on the cross did not.
Recognition is not what the Scriptures require.

How does one accept Him as Savior?  By following Him?  By doing as He did?  Hey, we are taking lessons from the Jews - because they have
followed Him better than us. 

Rose

From Eddie:
***************

Rose, you haven't been taught all the erroneous teachings in Judaism like you have in Christianity. If you would have been, you 
wouldn't make the statement that "they have followed him better than us". Christianity is by no means perfect but neither is Judaism. The 
TORAH describes that the PUNISHMENT for NOT following the Torah by the Jewish people was DISPERSION AMONG THE NATIONS (Deut 28 and
Lev 26).  By understanding the Torah, God has shown us that as a corporate people that the Jews have been a rebellious people toward 
their covenant and their God.  So, how have they followed him better than us ???

*****************************************************************************

From:          "David Lyon" 
To:            <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Subject:       Re: Do Jews need to accept Jesus as Messiah ???

Eddie,

As you know, this is a really controversial issue. 

From Eddie:
**************

It shouldn't be if we are rooted in grounded in what the Bible teaches.

From David:
**************

I know how contensious this is because I have family that tell me I'm wrong for holding the view that I do. They tell me that Jews MUST
believe in Jesus or they are condemned.

This is based on the Christian belief that Jesus is G-d.

From Eddie:
***************

And this is EXACTLY what Yeshua/Jesus taught and EXACTLY what the Bible teaches. NOT all of Christian doctrine is in error. In 
this case, it is correct that Yeshua/Jesus is God manifested in the flesh as I have showed with scripture over and over on this newsgroup.

From David:
****************

For me personally, G-d has placed me in a a situation where I have to talk to Jews on a daily basis. He's also giving me the words that I
have to say to these particular people.

From Eddie:
**************

I have been attending a Torah study with Reform Jews for three years. So, I have been around Jewish people also.

From David:
**************

The question is : Do I listen to the Christian dogma ? or listen to the Word of G-d. I have to choose to listen the Word of G-d, and the
Holy Spirit.

In a recent post, we discussed the "Is Yeshua Messiah or G-d", and we agreed from scripture that Yeshua was "The Word of G-d". 

There are many, many passages, especially the Book of John, and Revelation which push this view. I agree with it.

Therefore, if Yeshua is the Word of G-d, from a Jewish perspective, that makes him Torah in the flesh. Jews happily seem to accept that
Messiah is Torah in the flesh.

From Eddie:
**************

Orthodox Jews do not teach this. They say that Messiah is just a human being like us but is "annointed" by God to fulfill the 
Messianic prophecies. That is why Rabbi Akiva could proclaim Bar Kochba as Messiah. That is why the Chassidic Jews could proclaim that 
Rabbi Schneerson could be Messiah.

From David:
**************

For me, anybody who believes in Torah believes in Yeshua. This is how I explain that Jews can be saved. They are believing in Yeshua, while
they do not know his true name. Jesus is one name, but Torah is another.

From Eddie:
**************

What about Reform Jews who DO NOT believe that the Torah came from God but came from man ??? Do they believe in Torah and thus 
believe in Yeshua ??  What about secular Jews who do not believe in following Torah also. Are they saved ???

From David:
***************

What I then find is that many Jews don't believe in their Torah all that much. That is a problem. That definitly affects their salvation.

From Eddie:
***************

So, only Orthodox Jews are saved ??? But no other Jews are saved?

From David:
**************

I tell my Jewish contacts, if you know Torah, then you know Messiah, as this is what Yeshua himself said when he was on Earth.

From Eddie:
**************
 
This is NOT what Yeshua/Jesus taught. He taught that the Jews NEEDED to know HIM.

From David:
**************

I'd recommend that if anybody is unsure about this, to go off and do a lot of reading the scriptures and asking Yeshua to reveal HIS
perspective on this.

From Eddie:
**************

Yes, I would suggest the same thing as Yeshua/Jesus is VERY CLEAR that you MUST believe on HIM!

From David:
***************

We have to be very careful to go where the Holy Spirit wants us to go.

Regards

David

From Eddie:
***************

And the Holy Spirit reveals that Yeshua/Jesus is LORD (I Cor 12:3).

******************************************************************************

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