HHMI Newsgroup Archives
From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 1997 12:23 AM
To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup
Subject: Re: Understanding the Talmud and Rabbinic Judaism
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: I need some help with the Canonization of Scripture!
From: (Linda D Semler)
Dear Jason, Eddie and Believers;
As a new member to the group I have already "received" so much from your posts. Talk about daily manna, I rush to my computer to get my email
every morning. You all are so wonderful and my heart overflows with love for each and every one of you. For many years I have felt like a duck
out of water as the Lord was leading me into areas that the "church" refused to consider. Now the Lord has added to me a little Hebraic roots
congregation and this Group so I see the years of isolation was to teach me, one on one, the Truths all of you have also been led into.
I would like to add my opinion on the area of the NT scriptures. In 1981 as I was being wooed by G-d's Spirit I bought "THE BOOK" in paperback.
Over the next three years I devoured the scriptures from this translation and shredded 2 paperbacks. In 1989 at the Christian Booksellers
Convention, I received a paperback Jewish New Testement from David Stern with the inscription by him "May God bless your reading of this book."
David Stern.
At that time I was "clueless" to Judaism or the Hebrew roots of my Faith. The Jewish New Testement began my long and at times painful journey with
the Lord into His Truths. From my experience with "the church" and "man" I can definitely say that the Adversary has used these tools to his
advantage BUT GOD has overcome man made authority and heresy to bring HIS TRUTH through His scriptures to bring me into the fullness of my
salvation. Had I depended on man and his interpretations of the scriptures I would be bound by the Adversary's agenda into Religion. I
thank God for His Scriptures and His guidance into the Truth of His Scriptures found in the recorded NT and OT. His Word is my life source
and with HIM it is incorrupt.
Jason, I am so glad you have found Brother Kaplan and his ministry. I have supported his ministry for years and truly feel his integrity is
irreproachable as he is a man directly accountable to God. I will close by saying that my heart yearns for the day that I will stand with you all
before the Throne and we will Praise our God together as we worship Him in Spirit and Truth.
Shalom. Linda
*************************************************************************
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: I need some help with the Canonization of Scripture
From: (James R Kern)
Shalom Jerry -
I see from your reply to Jason that you like to study. Please allow me to share some information with you. As you pointed
out, "Rabbinic" Judaism of today is not (entirely) based on Tenak, but is (mostly) based on Talmud. However, I perceive from your letter
that you are lacking in your understand of what Talmud is . If I understand your letter, you are under the impression that the
Babylonian Talmud was a collection of books which the Jewish people brought back from Babylon upon their return to the land. This is not
the case. The Babylonian Talmud is essentially the interpretation and elaboration of the Mishnah as it was carried on in the academies of
Babylon. The compilation of the Talmud (Bab.) did not begin until well AFTER the destruction of the 2nd Temple, and was not "closed"
until around 499 C.E.
The body of Jewish literature complied by Jewish sages and scholars from the destruction of the 2nd Temple until now is huge, and
to understand it would take a great deal of study and time. However, a good working knowledge of what Talmud is, what Mishnah is, etc. can
be gained by examining a few articles in a good Jewish encyclopedia (Encyc. Judaica is the best, but others are also good).
Many people are under the impression that the Talmud is not good, and serves no purpose for today's believer (in Messiah). However, if one
uses Talmud properly, a great deal of knowledge can be gleaned from it. There is a great deal of wisdom to be found in this book,
especially when one sees it in the light of Messiah. Also, it is an unbeatable resource for historical research into 2nd Temple (and
later) times. Another thing to consider, and one which is often overlooked is that God Himself used the Talmud as the "glue" which
helped to hold the Jewish people together as a distinct and set apart people. Consider: prior to the destruction of the 2nd Temple, it was
the Temple which was the center of Jewish life.
When that was destroyed, what was there to fill the void? Very basically, and without going into details concerning Yavneh, etc. it
was the Talmud which became the "glue". In God's own good time, He Himself will open the Jewish people's eyes, and then "Rabbinic"
Judaism will no longer be "Talmud" centered, but will once again be "God centered". Until that day, let us all seek to learn about and
from each other in order that we may offend no one and may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Shalom aleychem
James
***********************************************************************
----------
From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 1997 11:52 PM
To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup
Subject: Re: Understanding the Talmud and Rabbini
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
From: Debbie Lockledge
Subject: Re: Understanding the Talmud and Rabbinic Judaism
Can someone explain to me the different books within Judaism, such as the Tanak, the Talmud, etc., and what the differences are? -Deb.
From Eddie:
**************
TaNaK is an acronym to describe the books of what the Christians call the Old Testament.
T = Torah (first five books of the Bible)
N = Nevi'im (Prophets)
K = Kutivim (Writings ... like Psalms)
This is how Yeshua/Jesus referred to the OT in Luke 24:44 as it is written:
"And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled which
were written in the LAW OF MOSES (Torah) and in the prophets (Nevi'im) and in the Psalms (Ketuvim .. Writings) concerning me"
Notice that Yeshua/Jesus used the ORDER of the Jewish OT.
In a NARROW definition, the word TORAH means the first five books of the Bible. In a BROAD definition, the Jews see TORAH as
EVERYTHING pertaining to keeping God's commandments including BOTH the written (TeNaK) and the Oral Law (Talmud).
God's Word = Torah. Torah = God's Word.
So TaNaK = Torah and Talmud = Torah.
Torah means INSTRUCTION on HOW to keep God's commandments. It does NOT mean LAW as viewed from a Greco/Roman mindset.
The Jews believe that the Torah that was given to Moses was done so BOTH written and Oral. For example, it will be said in
the Torah, "As the Lord commanded Moses" yet you won't see the detailed instructions on how to do something what God said. This, the
Jewish people, say was done orally.
The Jews also believe that the ORAL LAW was handed down FAITHFULLY and WITHOUT ERROR from generation to generation from
Moses. This is told in "Perkei Avot" which means, "the sayings of the Fathers" which is a book of wise instruction from the ancient
sages in the first chapter.
They see the Talmud (the written ORAL LAW) as being the DETAILED authority on HOW to keep any of God's commandments.
The detail aspect of keeping the Torah WAS communicated ORALLY until about 200 A.D. (C.E. --- Common Era). With the
destruction of the Temple and the dispersion of the Jews into the Roman Empire, the Rabbi's became concerned that the Jewish people
would lose knowledge of the Oral Law so they began to put the Oral Law in written form. This took from about 200 A.D. through 600 A.D.
to complete.
The Mishnah is the Oral Torah. It contains six tractates (like books of the Bible). Each tractate is divided into Mishnah
(book) chapter and verse. Then, there are commentaries to the Oral Torah called the Tosefta. Both of these together comprise the Talmud.
Orthodox Jews view the Talmud as the highest authority of Jewish law even above the written books of Moses.
The Talmud (Oral Law in written form) was put together separately in Jerusalem and Babylon. The Babylonian Talmud is the
more detailed and comprehensive of the two and usually when people refer to the "Talmud" they mean the Babylonian Talmud rather than the
Jerusalem Talmud unless otherwise noted.
While we can use the Talmud to help us in understanding the background of the manners and customs of the Jewish people, it
should not replace or be held in higher authority than the written Word of God, the Bible.
I hope that this explanation helps.
Eddie Chumney
>*************************************************************************
>
>To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
>Subject: Re: I need some help with the Canonization of Scripture
>From: (James R Kern)
>
>Shalom Jerry -
>
>I see from your reply to Jason that you like to study. Please allow me to share some information with you. As you pointed
>out, "Rabbinic" Judaism of today is not (entirely) based on Tenak, but is (mostly) based on Talmud. However, I perceive from your letter
>that you are lacking in your understand of what Talmud is . If I understand your letter, you are under the impression that the
>Babylonian Talmud was a collection of books which the Jewish people brought back from Babylon upon their return to the land. This is not
>the case. The Babylonian Talmud is essentially the interpretation and elaboration of the Mishnah as it was carried on in the academies of
>Babylon. The compilation of the Talmud (Bab.) did not begin until well AFTER the destruction of the 2nd Temple, and was not "closed"
>until around 499 C.E.
>
> The body of Jewish literature complied by Jewish sages and scholars from the destruction of the 2nd Temple until now is huge, and
>to understand it would take a great deal of study and time. However, a good working knowledge of what Talmud is, what Mishnah is, etc. can
>be gained by examining a few articles in a good Jewish encyclopedia (Encyc. Judaica is the best, but others are also good).
>
> Many people are under the impression that the Talmud is not good, and serves no purpose for today's believer (in Messiah). However, if one
>uses Talmud properly, a great deal of knowledge can be gleaned from it. There is a great deal of wisdom to be found in this book,
>especially when one sees it in the light of Messiah. Also, it is an unbeatable resource for historical research into 2nd Temple (and
>later) times. Another thing to consider, and one which is often overlooked is that God Himself used the Talmud as the "glue" which
>helped to hold the Jewish people together as a distinct and set apart people. Consider: prior to the destruction of the 2nd Temple, it was
>the Temple which was the center of Jewish life.
>
> When that was destroyed, what was there to fill the void? Very basically, and without going into details concerning Yavneh, etc. it
>was the Talmud which became the "glue". In God's own good time, He Himself will open the Jewish people's eyes, and then "Rabbinic"
>Judaism will no longer be "Talmud" centered, but will once again be "God centered". Until that day, let us all seek to learn about and
>from each other in order that we may offend no one and may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
>
>Shalom aleychem
>
>James
>
>***********************************************************************
>
>
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