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From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com Sent: Thursday, July 24, 1997 12:54 AM To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup Subject: RE: Fire on Shabbat From: "alan kowaleski" To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Subject: RE: Preparing for Shabbat / Torah Readings / Tallis > > From: "MARET Systems International" <> > To: <heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com> > Subject: Re: Fire on Shabbat > > Eddie, > > It seems that FIRE itself is the key element that must not be used on Shabbat. Therefore, electric stoves (as Rav O has stated) and > other methods such as Crocks can be used. > > What about the microwave? Is that a violation of the Shabbat law of cooking -- i.e. kindling a fire? > > Bob > > > >From: Michael Silver >Organization: Etz Chayim - Tree of Life Messianic Jewish Congregation >To: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com >Subject: Re: Fire on Shabbat > > >REPLY: The microwave uses electricity. If the electric stove is approved then should not be the microwave? In the time of the >wanderings, when G-d provided food for the Israelites, he made sure that they would have enough food on Friday, so that the people would >have enough to eat on the Shabbat. My wife and I have just recently discussed this issue and have come to the conclusion that we are not >to cook (using any means) from Friday evening until Saturday evening. If this means eating a cold meal we will do so. G-d's intention was >not to deny us the means of sustaining our bodies, but to teach us that no work was to be done on the Shabbat. And cooking is work, >though to some it is a pleasure, we need to focus on Him and our families and our congregations where we worship. Focus on the things >of G-d. That is what He intended along with giving us time to rest from the week's labor's. > >Rabbi Mordecai >-- >Rabbi Michael Silver (Rav Mordecai Ben-Baruch) >Etz Chayim - Tree of Life Messianic Jewish Congregation >P.O. Box 364, Organ, NM 88052 (near sunny Las Cruces) >Phone or Fax: 505-382-0193 >e-mail: treelife@bigfoot.com or treelife@zianet.com >http://www.zianet.com/treelife > Dear Brother Eddie, Concerning Shabbat and the lighting of fires. I hope this does not seem foolish but I live in Pennsylvania and burn wood in the colder months for household heat. Even the more common kinds of heating requires fire of a sort. I also have an oil boiler which is a fired system. Is the commandment 'not to light fires', as opposed to maintaining previously lit ones. Does a crock pot turned on the day before Shabbat help. What about igniting the automobile? I am trying to keep the day in joy. I am remembering this day to keep it holy to myself, however to others around me it may not be obvious. As a gentile I never kept Shabbat but desire to worship HaShem and Yeshua Mashiac as scripture directs. I want to keep such days as personal worship, part of faith and works. Since my decision to live for the Lord according to Hebraic roots, each day I am learning more as I meditate on these things. my spiritual yearnings are filled as I have included the richness of all his word. So much to search and learn. Jot by jot and line on line. And a heartfelt thanks to you and your work at Hebraic Roots. I rush to check my e-mail. Shalom Alan Kowaleski From Eddie: ************** Alan, In general, I believe that we should seek to be BALANCED. We should KEEP the shabbat but allow the day to bring PEACE and FREEDOM and JOY and not put us in "a box". As Yeshua/Jesus said in Mark 2:27, "The sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath" Always let THIS be your PRINCIPAL rather than adhering strickly to rabbinics. After this, allow the Ruach Ha Kodesh / Holy Spirit to lead you in your observance regarding what you should and should not do. If you let HIM lead you, WHAT you decide to do will be FREEDOM to you. If you seek to follow the LETTER of the sabbath, you will be frustrated. In ALL that you do, let it come from YOUR HEART. In this, God will be well pleased. Messianic Rabbi Silver, any additional thoughts regarding Alan's note ??? *********************************************************************** ---------- From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 1:49 AM To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup Subject: Re: Fire on Shabbat From: Sara Sutherland To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Subject: Re: Preparing for Shabbat / Torah Readings / Tallis > > From: Michael Silver > Organization: Etz Chayim - Tree of Life Messianic Jewish Congregation > > To: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com > Subject: Re: Fire on Shabbat > > REPLY: The microwave uses electricity. If the electric stove is approved then should not be the microwave? In the time of the > wanderings, when G-d provided food for the Israelites, he made sure that they would have enough food on Friday, so that the people would > have enough to eat on the Shabbat. My wife and I have just recently discussed this issue and have come to the conclusion that we are not > to cook (using any means) from Friday evening until Saturday evening. If this means eating a cold meal we will do so. G-d's intention was > not to deny us the means of sustaining our bodies, but to teach us that no work was to be done on the Shabbat. And cooking is work, > though to some it is a pleasure, we need to focus on Him and our families and our congregations where we worship. Focus on the things > of G-d. That is what He intended along with giving us time to rest from the week's labor's. Rabbi Mordecai > Rabbi Mordecai, Even if you leave the oven on(electric) somebody is working to keep that electricity to the house. How far do we go in our Halacha to Keep Sabbath? Do we allow even 1 person to work in the "world" so that we can keep sabbath? Or it doesn't matter; because they would have had to work anyways. I'm just curious to your POV on this subject. I am not "just being picky". These are some things that where brought up in a discussion with some friends. Anyone else is welcome to comment. Baruch HaShem Sara http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/4577//Index.html *********************************************************************** From: Michael Silver <treelife@zianet.com> Reply-to: treelife@zianet.com Organization: Etz Chayim - Tree of Life Messianic Jewish Congregation To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Subject: Re: Fire on Shabbat heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com wrote: > > From: "alan kowaleski" > To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com > Subject: RE: Preparing for Shabbat / Torah Readings / Tallis > > > Dear Brother Eddie, > > Concerning Shabbat and the lighting of fires. I hope this does not seem foolish but I live in Pennsylvania and burn wood in the colder > months for household heat. Even the more common kinds of heating requires fire of a sort. I also have an oil boiler which is a fired > system. Is the commandment 'not to light fires', as opposed to maintaining previously lit ones. Does a crock pot turned on the day > before Shabbat help. What about igniting the automobile? I am trying to keep the day in joy. I am remembering this day to keep it holy > to myself, however to others around me it may not be obvious. As a gentile I never kept Shabbat but desire to worship HaShem and Yeshua > Mashiac as scripture directs. I want to keep such days as personal worship, part of faith and works. Since my decision to live for the > Lord according to Hebraic roots, each day I am learning more as I meditate on these things. my spiritual yearnings are filled as I > have included the richness of all his word. So much to search and learn. Jot by jot and line on line. And a heartfelt thanks to you > and your work at Hebraic Roots. I rush to check my e-mail. > > Shalom > Alan Kowaleski > > >From Eddie: > ************** > > Alan, > > In general, I believe that we should seek to be BALANCED. We should KEEP the shabbat but allow the day to bring PEACE and > FREEDOM and JOY and not put us in "a box". As Yeshua/Jesus said in Mark 2:27, > > "The sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath" > > Always let THIS be your PRINCIPAL rather than adhering strickly to rabbinics. After this, allow the Ruach Ha Kodesh / Holy > Spirit to lead you in your observance regarding what you should and should not do. If you let HIM lead you, WHAT you decide to do will > be FREEDOM to you. If you seek to follow the LETTER of the sabbath, you will be frustrated. In ALL that you do, let it come from YOUR > HEART. In this, God will be well pleased. > > Messianic Rabbi Silver, any additional thoughts regarding Alan's note ??? > > From Messianic Rabbi Silver: ********************************* REPLY: I agree with you. We each approach the Shabbat as we are led to. I do not expect others to do as I do but as G-d leads them to do. If I choose to honor the Shabbat in the ways of my people then what is wrong about that. I do it as I feel called to do. Others are called in a different manner. The idea is to honor the Shabbat as a special day as G-d originally intended it to be. Do not get caught up in legalism concerning the Shabbat, but do it to honor G-d and to rest in Him. Rabbi Mordecai -- Rabbi Michael Silver (Rav Mordecai Ben-Baruch) Etz Chayim - Tree of Life Messianic Jewish Congregation P.O. Box 364, Organ, NM 88052 (near sunny Las Cruces) Phone or Fax: 505-382-0193 e-mail: treelife@bigfoot.com or treelife@zianet.com http://www.zianet.com/treelife "The fruit of the righte *********************************************************************** From: "Watchman" To: <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com> Subject: Re: Fire on Shabbat Shalom all, It is my understanding that God does not us doing work that requires exertion except where saving a life is concerned. Back in the days before electricity, it was hard work to make fires and keep them going. One had to gather wood, carry it some distance, stack it, keep it dry, build the fire, get it started if it was out, "Bics" were not available, hehe and then keep it from going out. Then of course came the food. One had to gather the grain, grind it, kill some game, prepare it from scratch, obtain water to cook and clean with..... thus showing a great deal of effort. God didnt say , dont eat, he said dont work on the sabbath....rest. It is not trouble to prepare a simple meal and relax with the family. Lets see, I turn on the stove, put some water in a pot, let it boil add some pasta , cut a few veggies and add some basil, tomatoes, onions and few other things that look good. I get some drinks, and we sit down and eat. Not at all like it was for them in Israel or the pioneers 150 years ago. Just my views on the heart of the matter. Shalom, Watchman http://www.supernet.net/~watchman ********************************************************************** From: James Olin Oden To: "'heb_roots_chr@geocities.com'"<heb_roots_chr@geocities.com> Subject: RE: Fire on Shabbat > Dear Brother Eddie, > > Concerning Shabbat and the lighting of fires. I hope this does not seem foolish but I live in Pennsylvania and burn wood in the colder > months for household heat. Even the more common kinds of heating requires fire of a sort. I also have an oil boiler which is a fired system. > Is the commandment 'not to light fires', as opposed to maintaining previously lit ones. Does a crock pot turned on the day before Shabbat > help. What about igniting the automobile? I am trying to keep the day in joy. I am remembering this day to keep > it holy to myself, however to others around me it may not be obvious. As a gentile I never kept Shabbat but desire to worship HaShem and > Yeshua Mashiac as scripture directs. I want to keep such days as personal worship, part of faith and works. Since my decision to live > for the Lord according to Hebraic roots, each day I am learning more as I meditate on these things. my > spiritual yearnings are filled as I have included the richness of all his word. So much > to search and learn. Jot by jot and line on line. And a heartfelt thanks to you and your work at Hebraic Roots. I rush to > check my e-mail. > Dear Alan, Always remember the Mitzvot (Commandments) of HaShem are intended to bring life. The L-RD would never want you to freeze to death. Fire for heat is permissible. Shalom..James ************************************************************************* From: Jim Snyder Organization: Legal Help Centers To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Subject: Re: Fire on Shabbat Shalom, I have been reading this site for about a month. It is educational and Eddie or who ever helps does keep it fairly well balanced. We welcome and wish to follow the law, because we love Yahweh and Yashua. "If you love me keep My commandments." We do NOT follow the law rote or just because do the love because someone interprets the commandments in a certain manner. This fire nonesense is that, nonesense. Yahweh is a loving Father. The kindling of a fire was major work at one time. This was the reason for the admonition NOT to kinle fires on the Sabbath, but before the Sabbath. There is NO prohibition to maintaining or keeping a fire going. If a loving Yahshua instructs us that we can assist a Samaritan on the Sabbath, or take as Oxen out of a ditch, would he not our Father expect us to kindle a fire on the Sabbath to protect our family if the heating fire went out. More importantly, when this admonition was given, the Israelites were in the desert and were smelting gold, , etc. The admonition was NOT to kindle an industrial fire on the Sabbath. The other part of the instruction was with regard to the mana. Boil what you would boil, etc., keep the rest for the Sabbath. We were NOT instructed to boil all, and set aside half for the Sabbath. Clearly there was NO prohibition to boiling mana on the Sabbath. Our family attends with an unaligned Sabbath worship and study Ekklesia in Bakersfield, California Republic, which is an hour from Tehachapi. We visit other Ekklesia assemblies as often as possible. Would especially like to know of and visit with more Ekklesia in our area. Messianic Sabbath worshipers need to get to know one another and support one another. Doctrine divides. Do YOU hold all the same truths and understanding that you held last year? 5 years ago? 10 years ago? etc.? NOT if you are studying and learning. Does a six year old, a sixteen year old, a twenty-six year old, etc., necessarily have the same understandings? NO experience, background, exposure, intelligence, emotions, etc., have each of us learn Yahweh's truths differently and at different times and in different ways/manners. Have a great and learning Sabbath, Shalom Jim Snyder. As was correctly pointed out The Sabbath is made to commune with God, but it was made for MAN. NO loving Father sets us up for failure or it out to 'get' us. ************************************************************************ From: Helen Segura To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Subject: RE: Fire on Shabbat From: Helen Segura Let us live by the SPIRIT of the law. G'd is a loving Father who knows what is best for His children. Many of us could work away our very lives - and many women do no know what it is to rest. Many work harder at weekends than during the week! At our congregation we stay in the meeting place all Sunday and we all take our lunches to share. However, some women take the ingredients and cook there. I feel G'd wants us to REST. Sometimes I have to cook something, but usually I take a cold dish. Let us not add any burden but rather in love urge each other to takes things easier, and NOT WORRY ABOUT IT! All my love to a great family. Helen. ************************************************************************* ---------- From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 12:36 AM To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup Subject: Re: Fire on Shabbat From: David Weiner To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Cc: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com> Subject: Re: Fire on Shabbat Shalom....... Let's use the good brains G-d gave us, regarding this matter. As long as the fire, electric stove, microwave, etc., is used during the Sabbath for anything other than working, labor or earing wages,........it's O.K. One has to eat or keep warm. Those of you who are putting all this importance on this "fire matter" are not accepting G-d's law in the true spirit. Let's be pragmatic. Boruch Hashem David Ben Reuben *********************************************************************** From: Marcella Burns To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Subject: Re: Re: Fire on Shabbat We live in Michigan and experience cold, hard winters. We usually heat with wood in our furnace, but also have access to oil. It is very hard work and time consuming to keep the wood fire going. It seems to me this a perfect example to us. We should use the gas on Shabbat so that the boys may rest. We also will try to make meals ahead so that Sabbath is as effortless as possible. What do the rest of you ladies do about dirty dishes? It is very hard to just leave things over night as we fight a constant battle against critters here, and they love dirty dishes and food left out. We are just beginning this adventure of keeping the Sabbath and have been wondering what others do. With eight children at home, not doing dishes for 24 hours is a big deal. Help me adjust my thinking, please. Marcella Burns From Eddie: ************** Here is my two cents worth ... in WHATEVER and ALL that you do, remember this PRINCIPLE: the SPIRIT of the TORAH brings LIFE but the LETTER of the Torah brings DEATH (II Cor 3:6) while at the same time, "If we love him, we keep his commandments" (John 14:15). This PRINCIPLE will keep us in BALANCE. Finally, in whatever we attempt to do and commit to do, we must be led by the Spirit of God. Being led by the Spirit of God in HOW we keep His commandments will bring LIFE and PEACE otherwise, the LETTER will bring frustration and death. ************************************************************************ ---------- From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 1997 11:15 PM To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup Subject: Re: Fire on Shabbat From: "B. Corzine" To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Subject: Re: Fire on Shabbat Please forgive my lack of computer etiquette, here as this is the very first time that I have ever engaged in such conversation. Nevertheless, I feel that this is as good a place as any to start. So, I shall offer my unsolicited opinion on this issue. Having read 2 or 3 of the comments about fire on Shabbat, it occurred to me that there are probably only 2 approaches to be taken: 1) All fire is forbidden (except for lamps lit before Shabbat begins); or 2) all fire for the purpose of working (including cooking) is forbidden. It seems rather obvious that "fire" includes the use of electric stoves, microwave ovens, as well as incandescent lights. Thus, as I tend to take the second approach, I feel that lights should be turned on prior to the beginning of Shabbat and no electric appliances should be used during Shabbat. After all, with all of the available foods that don't require cooking today, it allows me to be a bit more creative. Who said I have to cook my Shabbat meals? I apologize for being so windy. If anyone is interested in giving me pointers in correct "cyber-communication" please feel free. B. Corzine *********************************************************************** From: Michael Silver <treelife@zianet.com> Reply-to: treelife@zianet.com Organization: Etz Chayim - Tree of Life Messianic Jewish Congregation To: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com Subject: Re: Preparing for Shabbat / Torah Readings / Tallis heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com wrote: > > To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com > Subject: Re: Preparing for Shabbat / Torah Readings / Tallis > From: (Jonathan K. Landon) > > I went several times to worship in an orthodox synagogue. They always had hot meals after the evening service to welcome Shabbat. > > The lay leader or his wife would prepare the food in advance, and ensure that it was cooked, and brought up to temperature before sundown on > Friday. Then the food would be simmered until Saturday evening. He said that (1) turning on the (electric) stove was "kindling a fire" and > (2) heating up the food was "cooking." both of these are prohibited categories of labor during Shabbat. So as long as the stove was on and > the food up to temperature before Shabbat, it could simmer the whole time, and not violate the standard. > > Interestingly, if food was taken of of the stove to serve, he would not permit it to be put back in the pot, because once it had cooled down, > putting it back in would be heating it up, and that would constitute "cooking." > > Rabbi Othniel, Rabbi Silver, what do you think about this "keeping" of Shabbat? To me it seems like stretching the commandment, by creating a > very strict definition of the prohibited categories of work. Is it your understanding that the food to be eaten on Shabbat should be prepared in > advance and eaten cold? Or does simmering all day meet the intent of the mitzvah? > > Jon & Becky Landon > > "As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15 > > From Messianic Rabbi Silver: ********************************* REPLY: Exodus 35:3 says this: You shall kindle no fire in all your dwellings on the Sabbath day. The Hebrew word for fire is 'esh (aysh) which means fire, burning, fiery, flaming, hot, flames, supernatural fire or for cooking, roasting, parching, altar fire, G-d's anger. Covers a lot of ground doesn't it? Prohibited categories of work on the Sabbath relates to the Talmud and rabbinical interpretation of what is or what is not alllowed on the Sabbath. We need to be guided by the Ruach HaKodesh in what we do or do not do on the Sabbath. Torah was not meant to bind us up but to free us in the knowledge of how G-d wants us to live our lives. Be guided by the Ruach. If you choose to honor the Sabbath and not cook, so be it, but do it because you feel that this is what G-d is telling you to do in light of the Scripture. Do not do it if you feel obligated because someone is telling you to do it. The yoke of G-d is light, the burden of man is heavy. Rabbi Mordecai -- Rabbi Michael Silver (Rav Mordecai Ben-Baruch) Etz Chayim - Tree of Life Messianic Jewish Congregation P.O. Box 364, Organ, NM 88052 (near sunny Las Cruces) Phone or Fax: 505-382-0193 e-mail: treelife@bigfoot.com or treelife@zianet.com http://www.zianet.com/treelife "The fruit of the righteous is a TREE of life, and he who is winning lives is wise." Proverbs 11:30 *********************************************************************** ---------- From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com Sent: Thursday, August 14, 1997 1:20 AM To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup Subject: Re: Fire on Shabbat From: "Linda Browning, Ph.D., RD" To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Subject: Re: Fire on Shabbat The Holy Spirit impresses on me that God does not want us to work on the Sabbath, but to rest. God kindly spelled it out "don't start a fire". Ok Starting fires with charcoal and matches is alot of work. I won't do that. But, turning on my burner on the stove or turning on the crock pot is not work. As far as I'm concerned I could have a blazing forest fire going on top of my stove. It's not work, and I did not kindle a fire. I turned on a knob. Turning on electricity does not detract from rest. It keeps food clean and allows me to eat and keep my blood sugar normal. If one forbids electricity as fire, then all the food should be taken out of the refrigerators and they should be turned off. No cleaning up with hot water....cold showers included, and turn off the heater/air conditioning. The compressors could be said to kick in and kindle electricity after the Sabbath starts. Also, Moses said no fires in your (Israel's) dwellings....the whole community. That means the power plants take a break too? As far as I know, traditional Sabbath fire controversies may have overshot the point. The point for me is to delight myself in the L*rd and not get bogged down cooking and all the stuff (including a whole lot of other things besides making fires) involved in cooking. I could add "don't go out in the garden and pick green beans." "Don't peel carrots with a vegetable peeler". Basically, don't work...study and spend time with God. If the emphasis turns on one example of how not to work, like "lighting fires", or "what if the can opener is manually operated rather than electrical" rather than on resting in the L*rd, Sabbath gets ruined anyway. As a point of sanitation: leaving food cooking - starting on Friday and going through Saturday -is not healthy. Bugs/microbes can grow in it, and many of the nutrients break down. Leaving food out at room temperature is not a good idea either. Don't mean to step on toes. This is how God has dealt with me. Blessings, Linda Browning, Ph.D., RD *********************************************************************** To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com From: (Randy Felton) Subject: Re: Fire on Shabbat Dear Eddie, It occurs to me that if we are going to go by the strict rabbinical interpretation of kindling fire on Shabbat that it would be necessary to unplug all electrical appliances. A person would have to unplug the refrigerator to prevent it from coming on by thermostat as well as the heating and air conditioning system. All clocks, timers and even phones would have to be uplugged.....the phone ringing or an answering machine would cause a current to be energized. Now, what do we do about wool carpet in the winter time? If you walk and create static electricity and upon touching someone or something create a spark, have you kindled a fire? These things can be taken to the absurd....and often are. I like Rabbi Michael Silvers answer....do these things because you have a personal conviction from the scriptures. Having done that, do not impose on others what the Holy Spirit has not imposed on them. We are all at various levels of understanding and faith. It seems to me the worst thing we can do is break fellowship over these kinds of different interpretations. Eddie, thanks for the forum and the opportunity to work out some of thorny issues that plague us from time to time. Shalom, Randy Felton ***********************************************************************
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