From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Sent: Friday, July 11, 1997 2:33 AM
To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup
Subject: Re: Is the New Testament Scripture ???
From: Ken Jeffries
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Is the New Testament Scripture ??? -Reply
Shalom Aleichem Eddie
I agree with you wholeheartedly, without Y'shua the Messiach we have
nothing. The original sin cut us off from G-d but we must praise Him that
Rauch HaKodesh prophets such as Moses, Jeremiah and Isaiah were
inspired to write down G-d's word to us in the O to lead us to the Holy One,
Y'shua.
In the NT Rauch HaKodesh inspired men of G-d to put down His word
concerning the Living Word, Adonai Y'shua. I believe that G-d was
working in the lives of men like Matthew, Mark, Luke and John before they
even followed the teaching of Y'shua. I also believe that Paul was being
led by G-d even before the road to Damascus.
He was born in Tarsus a Roman City, taught by his father to study the
Torah. Paul would therefor been able to speak Hebrew, Greek and Latin
and when his father sent him to Jerusalem to study and he would then
have learned Aramaic. He G-d was preparing him to be able to send the
word of G-d to the gentile as well as the Jew.
Greig
We love you and G-d loves you, please do not say the NT is not G-d
inspired, Rauch HaKodesh uses men and women to open up the hearts
and minds to Y'shua. If you are waiting for the Massiach to come, I am
sorry but He has been, and He will come again to take His church. Will
you be ready? I will pray for you that your heart will soften towards the
Massiach Y'shua, only through Him can you come to G-d. Remember
Y'shua said I am The Way, The Truth and The Life and no one can come
to the Father except by me. Y'shua died for all of us Jew, gentile and
every nation under Heaven. I hope I have not upset you by any of my
comments.
Eddie
I pray you continue to open hearts of gentiles and Jews in these last days
to the truth of the living G-d.
B'shem Y'shua
Ken
************************************************************************
From: Steve Zimmerman
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Is New Testament Scripture???
Well put, Eddie and Paul, except that the 613 commands are all from
G-d.
It's just that some of them MAY have been for Israel only, as the
"sign-people", the "type-people", the picture of the purity of heart
that G-d wants of us all.
These are tricky issues, and it's clear that Satan is recognizing
their importance, because he's certainly coming up with some slick
counterfeits in the last few years. But he can't invent anything.
Where there's a counterfeit, there's a real.
Steve
**********************************************************************
From: Paige Garwood
To: <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Subject: Thanks, Eddie
Eddie...
I just want to say thank you so much for your information on the Feast
of Tabernacles, which forms the backdrop for John chapters 7& 8.
Coupled with what I have learned from Eidersheim's "The Life and Times
of Jesus the Messiah" your contribution to my studies has been almost
priceless. I have discovered over the last twenty years of studying
the Bible that the cultural context that the Old and New Testament was
penned within (ooops...grammar check!) solves so many otherwise thorny
issues. Seeing as how the vast majority of the men used by G_d to pen
the Scriptures were Jewish, it only makes sense that we who study the
Scriptures must study the men and the times to get a more complete
understanding of what G_d had them write. I am a neophyte in all
matters Jewish, but ever since I bought Eiderseim's book and started
receiving these posts from hebrew roots my study of the Bible has been
revolutionized! It's like I have never seen the Gospel of John
before!!! I must also confess that many of the things being discussed
here seem to bother me a little...subjects such as whether the New
Testament can be trusted - a very odd question for someone who trusts
Jesus (Yeshua?) as his/her Messiah.
From Eddie:
**************
The reason why this needs to be discussed is that ALL the
people on this newsgroup and who have joined our GLOBAL Hebraic Roots
of Christianity NETWORK have a DEEP desire to understand the
Hebraic/Jewish Roots of Christianity. MANY are "babes" in this area
and are just beginning to study and learn.
Because PART of what the Hebraic Roots Movement is about is
realizing the paganism that has been brought into Christianity and do
restore what was originally given to us but has been lost over the
past 2,000 years, SOME Christians who discover SOME of the pagan
origins of Christianity GO OVERBOARD and get OUT OF BALANCE and
start becoming "Anti-Christian" in ALL their theology and some want to
become so Jewish that they think about converting to rabbinical
Orthodox Judaism.
For those who GO OVERBOARD and desire to react to "Hebraic
Roots" by becoming "Anti-Christian" and want to convert to rabbinical
Orthodox Judaism, there are groups out their like "B'nai Noah" and
the "Netzraim Int'l" movements who put on masks of being a return to
the Hebraic/Jewish Roots of our faith but their unsound doctrine
appeals to those who desire to GO OVERBOARD even denying the
significance of Messiah and questioning whether the NT is inspired
scripture of God.
Therefore, these things NEED to be discussed on this
newsgroup so that members can understand what is out there and to be
careful. Remember if returning back to the roots of our faith is a
GENUINE move of God, the enemy will have his COUNTERFEIT and
appeal to people to be UNBALANCED.
So, in returning to the roots of our faith, let us ALWAYS
keep Messiah as #1 in our search. Let us embrace the sabbath, the
festivals and the Torah BUT remember our ROLE as non-Jewish
believers. Embracing the sabbath, festivals and Torah DOES NOT mean
embracing rabbinic Orthodox Judaism.
The Jewish BELIEVER has a ROLE to play in the Kingdom. The
non-Jewish BELIEVER has a ROLE to play in the Kingdom. Let us also
seek to understand these ROLES.
Finally, when embracing the Torah, the sabbath and the
Festivals AVOID LEGALISM. The SPIRIT of the Torah brings LIFE. The
LETTER of the Torah (legalism) brings death (II Corinthians 3:6).
It is the SPIRIT OF GOD who is RESTORING the roots of our
faith. Let us all ENCOURAGE one another and speak the TRUTH but let
us also be CONSIDERATE and COMPASSIONATE of each other knowing
that not everybody is at the same level of understanding and conviction
regarding HOW they embrace and live the roots of their faith.
Thank you for all your words of encouragment and allowing me
to keep this a BALANCED newsgroup regarding embracing the roots of
our faith while at the same time allowing all the various issues to
be heard and discussed.
From Paige:
**************
I think that if people would apply
the same critical analysis to the New Testament that is applied to any
other ancient literature, they would see that it stands quite nicely
against any and all accusations thrown at it. And lastly...everybody
on this list...keep doing what you are doing - healthy debate is
necessary to a healthy church. Truth, wherever it is found, stands on
its own. I appreciate all of you - and especially you, Eddie. G_d has
used you in my life...
Blessings be upon you!
Paige
From Eddie:
**************
I speak the truth ... The LORD is good and HIS mercy endures
FOREVER !!!! God has shown compassion and love to me in allowing me
to understand the roots of my faith just as He has done to you,
Paige. Baruch HaShem !!!
***************************************************************************
----------
From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 1:02 AM
To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup
Subject: Re: Is the New Testament Scripture ???
From: Steven Pappas
Organization: University of Wisconsin-Superior
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Is the New Testament Scripture ???
Eddie and others:
With the comments that I have read that the New Testament may not be
inspired I will challenge those with this thought. First, here is the
background for my remarks. I was doing some reading from some material I
received from an organization called "First Fruits of Zion." The
comment I read was very enlightening. Here it is, "The Old Testament
is the New Testament concealed, while the New Testament is the Old
Testament revealed." This establishes the unifying principal that all
of Scripture is given of God and is for teaching in righteousness,
rebuking, exhorting, etc. as Rav Shaul spoke to Timothy about. If we
approach Scripture with this perspective the Ruach HaKodesh would open
doors to the eternal riches and the mysteries of the Kingdom. For those
drifting to extremes we must remember the voice of the prophets like
Jeremiah who foretold of the day that the Torah would be written on our
hearts. Without embracing Yeshua as our Meshiac we have missed the
mark for the high call of Adonai is in Messiah Yeshua our Lord
(Phillippians).
Love in the Messiah,
Steve Pappas
*************************************************************************
From: Andrew Barnett
To: "'heb_roots_chr@geocities.com'"<heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Subject: RE: Is New Testament Scripture???
Questioning scripture can get one into a lot of trouble.
The bible as written in it's original translation, and I don't mean
Greek, Latin or any other form we have today is infallible, inherent
and inspiried by the Holy Spirit. At some time, the New Testament had
to exist in either Hebrew or Aramaic and if that were found, I would
be afraid that a lot of people would try to make every excuse they
could for the inconsistencies in the present translations. There are
words today in every New Testament translation that did not exist in
Yeshua's or Rabbi Saul's time. These will not appear in an original
version if it is ever found. Whether we like it or not, there is a
great deal of hidden Anti-Semitism in most translations beginning in
the early Greek translations. Case in point, the word church did not
exist in Yeshua's time. Yet there were two kinds of Temples:
#1) God's
#2) temple for the pagan gods
#3) Synagogues (since Babylonian captivity)
Even I feel a need to mention two other prime examples:
translations which chose to use a pagan fertility goddess's name to
replace one of the feasts days commanded by God has a real problem.
We admittedly look the other way by saying the goal or intent is good
??? Secondly, a translation that pays lip service to the title
Christ or Messiah reducing it's importance to something like a
person's last name is nothing more than a disguised attempt to
downplay who Yeshua was. My prayer is for new dead sea scrolls,
Aramaic copies in tact of the NT.
Andrew
*************************************************************************
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
From: Bet Emet Ministries <bennoah1@airmail.net>
Subject: Is NT Scripture
Hello Eddie,
Boy have you misjudged me. It seems you have read and understood
little of what I sent you. First of all, according to Acts 15 the
"hello" for the non-Jew in coming to God is the Laws of Noah, is that
not right or is James wrong? Please answer this for your readers so I am
not slandered any more than you have already done. Next, having understood
James on the matter, then we come to faith in Christ.
From Eddie:
***************
Craig, so you say the order is:
#1) Through the laws of Noah
#2) Then comes Messiah
Friend, you have it backwards. Let us examine Acts 15 briefly.
In Acts 15:1 it is written:
"And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren and
said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, you cannot
be saved"
So, the issue was HOW is the non-Jew saved? Is it by keeping the
law of Moses (symbolically mentioned with the reference to
circumcision) or not ???
In Acts 15:2-3 it is written:
"When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and
disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and
certain other of them should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and
elders about this question. And being brought on their way by the
church they passed through the Phenice and Samaria, declaring the
CONVERSION (salvation) of the GENTILES (non-Jews) and they caused
great joy unto all the brethren"
So, Gentiles are ALREADY being saved.
In Acts 15:5-6 it is written:
"But there rose up CERTAIN (not all) of the sect of the Pharisees
which believed saying, that it was needful to circumcise them, and to
command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders
came together for to consider of this matter"
In Acts 15:7-9, 11, Peter declared:
"And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto
them, Men and brethren, ye KNOW how that a good while ago God made
choice among us, that the GENTILES by my mouth should hear the word
of the gospel and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare
them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us.
And PUT NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US AND THEM (regarding salvation),
purifying their HEARTS BY FAITH ... But we believe that through the
GRACE of the Lord JESUS CHRIST we shall be SAVED even as they"
There you have it Craig. Salvation is by GRACE according to
FAITH of the LORD JESUS CHRIST and God put NO DIFFERENCE between the
Jew and the non-Jew.
This settled the salvation issue. Next, AFTER being saved,
the next issue becomes, "What is the role of the non-Jew regarding
the Torah?"
In Acts 15:14-20, the BEGINNING committment was based upon
some of the things that God gave to Noah. THEN in Acts 15:21 it is
written:
"For Moses (or the TORAH) of old time has in every city them them
that PREACH HIM (or the Torah) being read in the synagogue every
sabbath day"
So, this is what Acts 15 says:
#1) Salvation is by GRACE through FAITH of the Lord Jesus Christ for
BOTH Jew and non-Jew
#2) AFTER the non-Jew is saved, the issue became what is the role of
the non-Jew to keeping the Torah? The ruling was START SIMPLE
and BASIC with some of the things given Noah BECAUSE ...
#3) The TORAH is read and PREACHED in the synaogogue (where BOTH Jew
and non-Jew were attending at the time) and so the message was WHEN
the non-Jew begins to study and learn and understand THEN they will
be able to keep MORE OF THE TORAH like the Torah observant Jews were
doing.
Salvation comes to us from YESHUA/Jesus. In John 14:6 it is
written:
"Jesus saith unto them, I am the way, the truth and the life: NO MAN
cometh unto the Father but by me"
In Matthew 1:21 it is written:
"And she shall bring forth a son and you shall call his name
YESHUA/JESUS: for HE shall SAVE HIS PEOPLE (wasn't Yeshua/Jesus
Jewish and wouldn't HIS people be the Jewish nation ???) from THEIR
SINS"
Craig, this is what I teach on this list to our members.
#1) Salvation by GRACE through faith in Messiah Yeshua and NOT by
keeping the law
#2) AFTER we are saved, I encourage our members to STUDY and LEARN
about the roots of our faith and begin to keep the sabbath and
the festivals as the RUACH HAKODESH / Holy Spirit leads each person
to this place in their lives. This process takes TIME and STUDY and
LEARNING. Meanwhile, God's grace sustains us through the
process, His Ruach HaKodesh / Holy Spirit gives us revelation as we
go and we are still saved by faith in Yeshua/Jesus in Messiah
as we study, learn and grow in our faith in HIM.
From Craig:
**************
I believe in Jesus as Messiah, the word become flesh as John
says, only not the way the Catholics have brainwashed all of
Christianity to understand. As you know for yourself "messiah" means
to smear with oil, and Jesus was anointed and "BECAME" Messiah. That
part of God unified with him and he literally became God. Paul
teaches that and not a virgin birth.
From Eddie:
***************
Since you have taken time and liberty in the past to send
articles to various members of this list and to convince them of your
understanding of the scriptures, let it be known that you just stated
that you believe:
#1) Jesus BECAME Messiah
#2) You do not believe that Messiah was born of a virgin
In Revelation 13:8 it is written:
"... the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"
Messiah in Hebrew is "Maschiah" and means "THE ANNOINTED
ONE". Annointing in the Bible is associated with several things:
#1) SUPERNATURAL POWER AND ABILITY to accomplish a God-given task
#2) THE POWER of the ANNOINTING to accomplish this task comes for the
RUACH HAKODESH / Holy Spirit
Various people in the OT days were "annointed" (or given
special power or ability) to accomplish a God given task but NONE was
THE ANNOINTED ONE or the Messiah. In Isaiah 11:1-2 it is written:
"And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a
Branch shall grow out of his roots. and the SPIRIT OF GOD shall REST
UPON HIM, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of
counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the
Lord"
In Isaiah 61:1 it is written:
"The SPIRIT OF GOD is UPON because he has ANNOINTED ME (given him
supernatural power) to preach good tidings unto the meek (a task), he
has sent me to bind up the broken hearted (a task), to proclaim
liberty to the captives (a task) and the opening of the prison to
them that are bound ( a task)"
So, Messiah is THE ANNOINTED ONE from the FOUNDATION OF THE
EARTH.
From Craig:
**************
Now to the real issue. If you had studied what I have for over 15
years, you would not hold some of the views you still cling to. God
and history and facts do not lie. Men do. Religious men especially.
From Eddie:
**************
So now your findings become the authority on the issue? I
have studies for over 15 years also.
From Craig:
**************
No, you are right that I do not believe you have to believe in the
latest Pauline interpretation of Jesus to be saved, but if I look at
Jesus and see God, and how God wants all manking to live, loving Him
and His creations (mankind) then I have the real message of Jesus.
From Eddie:
**************
There is no such thing as a "Pauline interpretation of Jesus".
I have heard Orthodox and Reform Jews say that there is a "Pauline
interpretation of Jesus" so you must be in agreement with them on
this issue. BUT remember that Paul was an ULTRA-ORTHODOX JEW
who KEPT the Torah and HE had a PERSONAL encounter with Jesus on the
road to Damascus and Yeshua/Jesus TOLD HIM what He was to preach and
how he was to suffer.
In Acts 9:15-16 it is written:
"But the Lord said unto him, God thy way, HE (Paul) is a CHOSEN
VESSEL unto ME to bear MY NAME BEFORE THE GENTILES and kings, and the
children of Israel. For I will show HIM how great things he MUST
SUFFER for MY NAME'S SAKE"
In Philippians 3:5 it is written of Paul:
"Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of
Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews: as touching the law a Pharisee"
Regarding scripture, in II Timothy 3:16 it is written:
"ALL scripture (including OT and NT) is given by INSPIRATION OF GOD
..."
So, Craig, there is no such thing as "a Pauline interpretation
of Jesus" as what he taught and his mission was spoke to him by the
Lord Jesus Himself in Acts 9 and Paul was a Torah obvervant Jew.
It is only when you defame Paul through the churches erroneous
interpretations of Paul's writings that you can make this claim but
the writings of Paul were not given through his own belief system of
himself but came by the inspiration of God Himself through His
Holy Spirit.
From Craig:
**************
We are told to follow Christ are we not. Even Paul says to follow him
as he follows Christ. So, Eddie I am not a Ben Noah without Jesus,
but I am not ashamed of the covenant God gave all Gentiles and mankind
to be accepted with him (Acts 10:35 even Peter finally understood that
after all of his religious brainwashing).
From Eddie:
**************
But, Craig, you are Ben Noah FIRST and Jesus SECOND. Even the
"new agers" are earth FIRST and Jesus SECOND. Believing in Jesus is
not the issue or even giving credence to some of His teachings but
THE ISSUE becomes is HE the Messiah and does salvation FIRST come
through Him? You say not. I say it does.
From Craig:
**************
So, to lead your readers to understand that I have rejected Jesus is
FAR FROM THE TRUTH. I teach and preach him, but not the acceptance of
Catholic theology about him for salvation, but rather a Jewish
understanding of who the Messiah is, what his mission was and yet will
be.
From Eddie:
**************
A Jewish understanding? Do you mean by this the modern day
Rabbincal writings that have been changed over the years to be bias
against Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah ??
Now, you say the "Jewish understanding". Have you heard the
saying that TWO Jews and THREE opinions ?? So, what is the "Jewish
understanding"? Reform Jews (a Jewish understanding) say that there
is no personal Messiah but Messiah is a condition of world peace.
Modern day Orthodox Jews says that the suffering Messiah
(Messiah ben Joseph) will die in the battle of Gog and Magog and that
the King Messiah (Messiah ben David) (they believe in TWO Messiah's)
will resurrect the suffering Messiah. Is this the "Jewish
understanding" that you are talking about?
Or what about the Torah observant Messianic Rabbi's who are on
this list and believe that Yeshua/Jesus is Messiah, that salvation is
through HIM alone and that Yeshua/Jesus is God manifested in the
flesh and was born of a virgin. Is this the "Jewish understanding"
that you accept?
You just cannot say that "Christianity" believes "so and so"
about the Messiah and since Christianity is pagan they are wrong so
the only alternative is the Rabbinical Orthodox Judaism view. This is
a fallacy in thinking and logic to the highest degree.
From Craig:
**************
Not all Jews reject Jesus. Neither to I, but if you are as
scholarly as you lead others to think, then you either are not aware
of the mass of informatin I allude to, or else you rejected it. It is
one thing not to know, but it is completely another thing to reject
facts.
From Eddie:
**************
Whatever information you have studied, it has led you astray.
You don't believe that the Messiah was born of a virgin. You don't
believe that salvation come through HIM ALONE and BEFORE all other
ways (including believing in the laws of Noah).
Didn't Yeshua/Jesus have this saying in Matthew 15:14:
"Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind
lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch?"
You have seen the light of accepting and embracing the Hebraic
Roots of Christianity yet you have gone so far that you are OUT OF
BALANCE. You are now rejecting fundamental Biblical truths. This
became possible (as you have stated to me in earlier notes) when you
don't accept the NT as authoritative scripture from God but only
"Midrash".
From Craig:
**************
By the way, do you consider the Ebionites a heresay or a cult as you
do others who dont agree with you?
From Eddie:
*************
Actually for the members who have been on this newsgroup for
quite some time, each one of them could probably tell you something
that I have said that they don't quite agree with but I don't call
them a cult if they hold onto fundamental Biblical doctrine
regarding the Messiah which you don't. You don't accept the NT as
inspired scripture (as you told me in an ealier note), you just
mentioned in this note that you don't believe that Yeshua/Jesus was
born of a virgin, you believe that the non-Jew comes to God FIRST
through the laws of Noah THEN follows Messiah. These are
classic "cultic" Christian beliefs that is in a DIFFERENT CATEGORY
that if one is pre-trib or another is post-trib.
From Craig:
**************
Let me say in their defense that
they are James, Peter, and John and the boys. Scholarship on the Dead
Sea Scrolls reveal this. Yes, I know that current Christianity
rejects them as a cult, but honestly how can you or I do this in light
of the fact that they lived and eat and slept with Jesus for 3 1/2
years? Would they, better than anyone know him, and the truth about
him? Did Jesus tell them to go into all the world and send them out
with a mistaken understanding of who he truly is...?
From Eddie:
**************
No, they believed that He was God manifested in the flesh.
They heard him teach in John 8:56, " ... before Abraham was, I AM
(YHVH) in Hebrew" You have errored in your studies and also in
allowing the Ruach HaKodesh / The Holy Spirit to reveal to you
the truth about who Messiah really is.
All of your studies where you have come to understand
that "Christmas and Easter" has it's origins in paganism and the
Sabath was changed to Sunday etc MEANS NOTHING if you don't have your
fundamental doctrine correct about who Messiah is and what He did for us
when he died on the tree as it pertains to our salvation in Him.
I know people who have already died, knew that Jesus was
Messiah, understand and accepted fundamental Biblical doctrine about
the Messiah yet celebrated Christmas and Easter and went to church on
Sunday all their lives. They are better off today than someone who
"discovers" the paganism in Christianity and embraces their Hebraic
Roots and throws away with it fundamental Biblical doctrine about
salvation and Messiah.
Hebraic Root is a SECONDARY issue AFTER we are saved and
understand the salvation issue in the Bible.
From Craig:
**************
Christology divides us, but it was not a problem in the first century
as it is today. It seems that if Jews who believed in Jesus and those
who didnt could for a long time worship together, can we not as well?
From Eddie:
**************
Yes, but worshipping together and teaching FUNDAMENTAL
doctrine about who Messiah is and if the NT doctrine is inspired
scripture should NOT fall into the category of "let us all worship
together and be not divided". Doesn't the Bible say that "a little
leaven leavens the whole lump" ???
From Craig:
**************
Lastly, to truly understand this picture I have painted for you
requires a life invested in study of the texts, NT manuscripts,
history, archeology, etc. God has given me a mantle for this, I did
not go searching for it. What I have found sometimes goes against the
grain so to speak.
From Eddie:
**************
You are studying from "head" knowledge rather than
allowing the Ruach HaKodesh ./ Holy Spirit to lead you and guide you
into the truth of the scriptures as He was sent to do (John 16:13).
I will make you a challenge and a promise:
IF you have an OPEN heart and will ASK God through His Ruach HaKodesh
/ Holy Spirit to reveal to you who Messiah is, HE WILL DO IT !!!
From Craig:
**************
But Eddie, my brother in Christ who I love, please understand that I
fear going to Heaven and meeting Jesus, and be told I have practiced
Idolatry my whole life because I uncritically read Paul, or accepted
some of his views which were not accepted by the Apostolic Church and
James, Peter, John. Have you not seen the conflict between Paul and the
Apostles when you
read the NT? Its somewhat hidden at times, but Paul is continually
snubbed by them, mainly because of what he was teaching.
From Eddie:
**************
You premise for your statement is faulty by implying that
Paul "preached his own gospel". In this, you are not saying anything
different than "Jews for Judaism".
From Craig:
**************
Have you ever read and pondered what H. Maccoby in the Mythmaker
writes about the invention of Christianity? It is food for thought.
From Eddie:
**************
You become OUT OF BALANCE when you begin to have this thought
in your mind:
Christianity = Paganism
Judaism = Solid Biblical truth
Is there paganism in Christianity? Yes! Is there paganism in
Judaism? Yes! Yet, there are those Christians who hear SOME of the
paganism in Christianity and begin to reject ALL of Christianity as
being pagan and Judaism being saintly. This is OUT OF
BALANCE. SOME paganism in Christianity doesn't make Judaism 100%
saintly. Especially if you trade how they have strayed in their understanding
of Messiah over the years.
From Craig:
**************
Will you and I get everything correct in our belief system before we
die? No, but we both reach for the mark of the high calling of God in
Messiah dont we?
From Eddie:
**************
Yes, but not if you reject that Messiah is not needed for
salvation and not if you reject that He was born of a virgin and not
if you reject the NT as inspired scripture from God but only can be
best seen as "Midrash" (as you have told me in an earlier note).
From Craig:
**************
So, please give me a little grace when I my Email name is bennoah, not
because I reject Jesus, no way, but I dont make him God the father,
incarnate as the Catholics did, what I try to understand is what
archeology, history, culture, language, etc of the OT as well as the
NT passages inform me about when all are put together, that Jesus is
Messiah ben Joseph, will come again as Messiah ben David, and we are
to worship the FATHER in spirit and in tuth, and not Jesus in his
place regardless of what the Council or Nicea or Constantine wanted.
I hope you print this article, and I hope our relationship is not
strained because we disagree on some things. But being a Baptist who
fell in love with God and devoured the Bible, as well as the NT
writings I have found errors that too numerous errors in them,
historically and theologically which cannot be passed off as "well the
Holy Spirit" will show you if you study. I pray, I seek God, I desire
truth, I desire to please both God and Jesus brother, so has God
turned me over to the Devil? I think not, rather, we are all parts of
the Body of Messiah, truths you have I dont, truths I have you dont,
and when we can put our preduices aside and examine the evidence
critally and lovingly in a spirit of repentance, then we come into the
unity of "the faith."
From Eddie:
***************
Disregarding FUNDAMENTAL Biblical doctrine about the
Messiah and our salvation cannot be discarded in the name of "unity
of the faith".
From Craig:
**************
So, in a nutshell, just because I reject Nicea, as did most of
Christianity AT THAT TIME (read Arius..his view was in
ascendancy...his view of Christ was very Jewish..that why he was
overrulled by Constantine..even Eusebius agreed with him about the
deity or divinity of Jesus (and so do I).....have you read it for
yourself or do you like most today read Joshus's Books Store
theology)?
From Eddie:
**************
Reading man's opinion and forming a theology is irrelevant.
What is relevant is what God's written Word says and what God reveals
to His people through the help of the Ruach HaKodesh / Holy Spirit.
From Craig:
***************
Well, gotta go, having some computer problems. Maranantha!
Pastor Craig Lyons M.Div
Bet Emet Ministries [House of Truth]
902 Cardigan
Garland, Texas 75040
972-4963282
bennoah1@airmail.net
From Eddie:
**************
Since you are very active in posting articles on the Internet
and even to people on this newsgroup at times and in different ways,
at least they can better make a judgment about you and your beliefs
through this discussion that we just had. Otherwise, what you begin
to teach and share with them is hidden from what your basic doctrinal
believes are regarding the Messiah and God's book we call the Bible.
***************************************************************************
From: Remy
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Eddie's Response to Ken Du Plessis
Dear Eddie,
When you're hot you're hot. Very good response to Ken who is
obviously incredibly hostile and has confused man-made religion with
the truth of a living relationship with G-d. We are Jewish and have
encountered a number of hostile Jews who cannot understand the
difference. Man-made religion, whether it be Catholicism or Orthodox
Judaism (although they do worship G-d, not a pagan source [with
exception of Kabbalists]) always does exactly the same thing.
Having a ministry to Jews is exhausting! On one hand, their depth and
passion are unmatched. On the other, when they go off the deep end it
is really DEEP!
Thank God this will all change soon when they see the Messiah whom
they have pierced! Then we can all relax a little bit!
Remy
************************************************************************
----------
From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 1997 11:50 PM
To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup
Subject: Re: Is the New Testament Scripture ???
From: "Dave Jewell"
To: <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Is the New Testament Scripture ???
Eddie,
I found your interchange with Craig both fascinating and deeply
depressing. It is the saddest thing I have read since becoming part of
this newsgroup. I agree 100% with your comments. If any aspect of
Hebraic Roots study causes someone to reject the fundamental truths of who
Jesus was, His virgin birth and the inspiration of Scripture, then that
person is in a state of self-deception. This much is clear from:
> Lastly, to truly understand this picture I have painted for you
> requires a life invested in study of the texts, NT manuscripts,
> history, archeology, etc. God has given me a mantle for this, I did
> not go searching for it. What I have found sometimes goes against the
> grain so to speak.
This is just gnosticism hidden behind a thin veil of scholarly
respectability. Very sad.
Dave
***********************************************************************
----------
From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 1997 11:17 PM
To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup
Subject: Re: Is the New Testament Scripture ???
From: Philip Nowland
Subject: Re: Is the New Testament Scripture ???
To: "INTERNET:heb_roots_chr@geocities.com"
<heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Shalom Dave
I was interested to note your comment of concern regarding exchanges about
the Canon of Scripture. I waited around to see whether this would light up
into a mighty fire, but it seems that this has not happened.
I enjoy much of what I hear from the various quarters of the Hebraic
Heritage fraternity. However, not everything that I hear is helpful. Some
people use the forum as a platfourm to sound off about their pet theories.
Others bear a grudge about the church and use the forum as a means of
unloading. Another group find any opportunity to snipe at fundamentalism.
While liberal, or could we describe them as the semi-evangelical (?) enjoy
the opportunity to parade their unbelief.
It is the nature of an e-mail forum, unlike a church or synagogue, that
everyone has the same oppportunity to pipe in with their opinions. In
reality, there is no recognised authority structure. This means that you
have to take a lot of what is said as part of the process of coming to
knowledge, rather than definitive statements of theology, and some of what
is said - with a pinch of salt!.
However, apart from this - it is one of the most informative arena that I
can find to exchange valuable information regarding the whole subject of
the Hebraic Roots of Christianity.
But I do find myself seriously concerned about the frequent denigration of
the veracity of the New Testament Scriptures that is expressed today. It is
not true that the embracing of the Hebraic Roots of our faith, as part of
the explanation of the meaning of Scriptures, demands that we have to also
take on views of Higher Criticism - that in former generations would have
simply been labelled as Liberalism - and unbelief.
I have not seen any substantial evidence in any of the arguments expressed,
that have rocked my implicit faith in the reliablility of the New Testament
Scriptures as they have been tranmitted to us in the Greek language.
Philip Nowland
UK representaive of Hebraic Heritage Ministries International.
**************************************************************************
----------
From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 1997 1:19 AM
To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup
Subject: Re: Is the New Testament Scripture ???
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
From: (Randy Felton)
Subject: Re: Is the New Testament Scripture ???
Dear Philip,
I agree with your assesment of the makeup of the newsgroup. I also do not
have a problem with the inspiration of the New Testament fitting in along
side the Tanakh. There is an intended harmony through out the writings of
both works. The one area that we have come to understand is that there are
certain problems with the translations. Not that the Word of God is
invalid, by any means, but that there is a problem with our understanding.
Each translation has it's own area of lack. Part of the solution is to
understand the history, culture and language the Bible was written in.
Another help is in the finding and recognition of earlier manuscripts.
Some of us still have a hope of uncovering original texts of the New
Testament in Hebrew. This should reconfirm rather than destroy the
validity of God's word.
Shalom,Randy Felton
At 11:17 PM 8/12/97 +0000, you wrote:
>From: Philip Nowland
>Subject: Re: Is the New Testament Scripture ???
>To: "INTERNET:heb_roots_chr@geocities.com"
<heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
>
>Shalom Dave
>
>I was interested to note your comment of concern regarding exchanges about
>the Canon of Scripture. I waited around to see whether this would light up
>into a mighty fire, but it seems that this has not happened.
>
>I enjoy much of what I hear from the various quarters of the Hebraic
>Heritage fraternity. However, not everything that I hear is helpful. Some
>people use the forum as a platfourm to sound off about their pet theories.
>Others bear a grudge about the church and use the forum as a means of
>unloading. Another group find any opportunity to snipe at fundamentalism.
>While liberal, or could we describe them as the semi-evangelical (?) enjoy
>the opportunity to parade their unbelief.
>
>It is the nature of an e-mail forum, unlike a church or synagogue, that
>everyone has the same oppportunity to pipe in with their opinions. In
>reality, there is no recognised authority structure. This means that you
>have to take a lot of what is said as part of the process of coming to
>knowledge, rather than definitive statements of theology, and some of what
>is said - with a pinch of salt!.
>
>However, apart from this - it is one of the most informative arena that I
>can find to exchange valuable information regarding the whole subject of
>the Hebraic Roots of Christianity.
>
>But I do find myself seriously concerned about the frequent denigration of
>the veracity of the New Testament Scriptures that is expressed today. It is
>not true that the embracing of the Hebraic Roots of our faith, as part of
>the explanation of the meaning of Scriptures, demands that we have to also
>take on views of Higher Criticism - that in former generations would have
>simply been labelled as Liberalism - and unbelief.
>
>I have not seen any substantial evidence in any of the arguments expressed,
>that have rocked my implicit faith in the reliablility of the New Testament
>Scriptures as they have been tranmitted to us in the Greek language.
>
>
>Philip Nowland
>
>UK representaive of Hebraic Heritage Ministries International.
>
>**************************************************************************
>
----------
From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Sent: Friday, August 15, 1997 12:38 AM
To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup
Subject: Re: Is the New Testament Scripture ???
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
From: (Jim Randall)
Subject: Re: Is the New Testament Scripture ???
Thank you Philip Nowland for your comments regarding the New Testament.
I have been reading the arguments about whether the New Testament
Scriptures being authentic and feel that some of those expressing opinions
do not really know G-d and His power. Yeshua even confronted some
religious leaders of His day with not knowing the power of G-d. The G-d of
the Bible, the G-d I serve, is all powerful. Even His names express this
and other aspects of His character. He is well able to choose what is
placed in the cannon of scripture so that His ultimate will is fulfilled.
The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD
(Proverbs 16:33). He raises up and destroys nations and kings. The One
who created the Universe with a word and upholds it with His power, the one
who is fulfilling His Word before the eyes of this generation, is He not
able to direct the choices of a few mere humans to choose the canon of
scriptures? Perhaps the god of those people is a wimp and can not direct
the affairs of men so that His purpose is fulfilled, but my G-d is able.
Shalom,
Jim
*********************************************************************
* JIM RANDALL *
* *
* Home Page:
http://www.yccJapan.org *
*********************************************************************
* Pastor *
* Yokohama Christian Center *
* Dai Ichi Shinei Bldg. 3F *
* 187 Yamashita-cho, Naka-ku *
* Yokohama 231 JAPAN *
* TEL (Int'l): +81-45-663-5717 ***** TEL (Domestic): (045) 663-5717 *
* FAX (Int'l): +81-45-663-8395 ***** FAX (Domestic): (045) 663-8395 *
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