From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 1997 1:09 AM
To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup
Subject: Comments: Pre-Adamic existence of the ea
From: JOHANVR
Subject: Pre-Adamic History
To: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Dear Rooters
Ages in Chaos? Pre-Adamic History?
Dallas Theological Seminary publishes Bibliotheca Sacra, an excellent
theological journal. Bibliotheca Sacra / July-September 1992
contains an excellent article on the issue of whether the text of
Scripture supports the theory of a pre-Adamic race. The article also
has a follow-up in a later issue. Unfortunately, I have no details
on the publication date of the follow-up article.
The article is titled "Genesis 1:1-3: Creation or Re-Creation?" and
is authored by Mark F. Rooker.
Greetings from South Africa
Johann van Rooyen
**********************************************************************
From: "David Lyon"
To: <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Pre-Adamic and the Garden of Eden
Eddie Shalom,
This is a fascinating subject, and much work has been done
over the last few years in piecing together bits of information.
Let me know if you want more details.
1) There is a magazine that regularly publishes information
showing evidences for creation from a scientific perspective. It
is fascinating, reasonable and rational.
2) It is possible that the Temple Mount is site of the Tree of Life
from the Garden of Eden. G-d always keeps watch over
the land of Isreal. Why is this ? Is this because that is
were he walked with the first man ? Why does G-d love
the land of Isreal so much over all the other places in the
world ?
3) The remains of the Garden of Eden may be in the gas tank of
your car !
Q: What are fossil fuels ?
A: The remains of vegetation from vast ancient rainforests.
Q: Where are the worlds richest petroleum deposits ?
A: In the middle East, in the very area where one would expect to
find the fossilized remains of the what was left from the Garden of
Eden, when it would have been destroyed by the Great Flood.
Q: Can science provide a more reasonable explanation of these
oilfields ?
A: No.
6) Strong evidence exists to show that Noahs Ark has been
found on one of the mountains around Ararat in Turkey.
7) There was enough room in Noahs ark to hold examples
of all the species on the planet. A simple mathematical
calculation can be done to show that it was possible.
8) The fossil record conclusively DISPROVES evolution. In
all of the fossils that have been found, not one instance
of an intermediate species has been found.
What this means is that for a Stegosaurus, or T-Rex,
there are no intermediate or 'half way' species. Each
dinosaur is found ONLY in it's so called final state.
9) Dinosaurs fit perfectly into G-ds plan, and were an integral
part of the Garden of Eden. Some survived for a time,
and the fossil record matches the human record (of Dragons)
and that found in the bible (the mention of Leviathon in Job)
There is strong evidence that some Dragons/Dinosaurs were
of fire breathing. (From forensic evidence).
10) The Angel 'Michael', that waged war against haSatan and
kicked him out of heaven, may have been Yeshua, since
the name Michael in hebrew, means 'like G-d'.
Regards
David
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To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
From: Ben Goodwyn
Subject: Re: Pre-Adamic and the Garden of Eden
>From: Dr. Don Levesque
>To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
>Subject: Re: Pre-Adamic existence of the earth ???
>
>Concerning Richard W. Breazeal's question in support of the
>pre-Adamic theory of creation, I thought I would submit the following
>which is part of my book entitled Eden.
>
>Between the first verse and third verse of Genesis, it's believed by
>some to hold a unaccountable period of the earth's history. The
>second verse in the Hebrew is apparently circumstantial to verse 3.
>It tells the earth's condition when G-d began to re-create it, and
>specifically to separate light from chaotic darkness.
>
>The Torah says in the beginning Elohim created (bara) ex-nilio,
>without any substance the heaven and the earth. No time table is
>given here. In verse two, the earth ( haa- arets) became (haw-yaw)
>1961 a primitive root [compare 1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become,
>come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):
>Time according to man's calendar only begins in verse 3.
>
>
>The Torah us that when G-d created the earth he did not created in
>vain, he created it to be inhabited. The second verse reveals that
>the earth was void, the Hebrew word "hay-e-thah is translated "it
>was" but this word is derived from the hayah which always means to
>become.
>
>
>The Torah is not silent concerning this a pre-Adamic period of the
>earth's history. The prophet Jeremiah said concerning this verse 2
>of Be-re-shith (Genesis), "I beheld the earth, and indeed it was
>without form, and void; and the heavens, they had no light.) Jer 4:23
>(NKJ). The navie (prophet) Isaiah also had something to say about
>this verse. " For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is
>the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did
>not create it a waste place, {But} formed it to be inhabited), "I am
>the LORD, and there is none else. (Isa 45:18 NAS). Notice, he said
>He established it and did not create it a waste place.
>
> It became chaotic and was related to a revolt of Lucifer (Satan)
> and his angels (cc Isa. 14:12-14; Ezekiel 28;13-17; Rev. 12:4). If
>Genesis 1 describes the original creation, how can the account be
>reconciled with the earth's great antiquity and mankind's late
>appearance on the earth? If the original creation was made out of
>nothing, why would God start with chaos rather than nothing? Chaos
>represent the result of sin and rebellion (cc 1 Cor. 14:33).
>
>Lucifer had been placed there in the Garden, he had possibly been
>given dominion over all things as Adam would later be entrusted with,
>and was functioning a priestly role which dealt with the covering
>mentioned in Ezekiel 28. The Scriptures seems to shed light on the
>rebellion that possibly started there in Eden and the Lord did cast
>him our from His Holy Mountain.
>
> The scriptures does speak of Satan being cast down from the
> heavenly, Jesus mentions it in the Gospels, and in the book of Revelation.
>But we must also remember that the Prophet Isaiah also reveals that
>Lucifer had said " I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne
>above the height of the clouds; I will exalt my throne above the
>height of the clouds; I will sit also upon the mount of the
>congregation in the north: I will ascend above the heights of the
>clouds; I will be like the most high" Five things are mentioned
>here that Satan said he would do, 1). He would ascend into heaven.
>(He would place himself in the realm of G-d) 2). He would exalt his
>throne above the height of the clouds. (He would usurp the authority
>of G-d over the earth) 3). He would also sit upon the mount of the
>congregation in the north.
>
>(This may possibly be a referring to Matt. 24:24 where he will sit on
>the recovered Mercy Seat in the Temple) 4). He would ascend above
>heights of the clouds. ( The clouds here might be a reference to
>Hebrews 12:1 the great cloud of witnesses. 5). He wants be like
>the most high. ( He will declare himself G-d).
>
>This warfare continues up to this day and will end at the end of the
>age when Christ will cast the Devil and his host in the lake of fire.
>
>G-d replanted another garden in Eden, and there he place the man
>Adam, the tragic story unfolds with a temptation and fall of mankind.
> Satan by default regains the title deed of the earth. Man having
>lost the right to remain in the Garden of Eden is barred from the
>tree of life.
>
>Eden was not a garden has been generally taught, but a specific
>place, for we read that "a river went out of Eden to water the
>garden, and from there it parted and became four riverheads" (Gen
>2:10). Another insight of what Eden represents and is, may be found
>in the last verse of Genesis Chapter 3
>
>So He drove out the man; and He {placed, shaken Heb.} cherubim at
>the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned
>every way, to guard the way to the tree of life" (Gen 3:24).
>Jamieson, Fausset and Brown, in their commentary on Genesis,
>translate the last verse of Genesis 3 As follows: "And He (G-d)
>dwelt at the east of the Garden of Eden between the Cherubim, as a
>Shekinah (a fire-pillar or fire-sword) to keep open the way to the
>tree of life" The same thought is presented in the Jerusalem
>Targum. If the grammatical construction of the Hebrew will warrant
>this translation, then Genesis 3:24 would seem to signify that having
>expelled man from the garden, G-d established a mercy-seat protected
>by the Cherubim, the fire pillar or sword being the symbol of the
>Divine presence, and whoever would worship G-d must approach this
>mercy-seat by way of a blood sacrifice. The Hebrew word shaken
>which in Genesis 3:24 is translated "placed" and is defined in
>Young's Concordance "to tabernacle," Nowhere else in the Old
>Testament is shaken translated "placed," but eighty-three times it is
>rendered "to dwell." It is the same Hebrew word which is given as
>"to dwell" in Exodus 25:8.
>
>Eden invokes to the present time a haunting fantasy of heaven .
>The name speaks of a perfect state, and is related to all mankind.
>Deep within the memory banks of every man lies a faint recalling of
>those roots. Plato wrote that "man is motivated by the dim
>recollection of a perfect state." Plato's REPUBLIC speaking of a
>utopia written in the 4th century BC, was referring to the Edenic
>experience that we all experienced genetically in Adam. So deep
>within us, lies that secret yearning for that perfect place.
>Throughout history man has looked and hoped for that Utopia.
>
> Mankind is governed psychologically by the events that transpired
>there, and all humanity shares the same roots of depravity that our
>first parents handed down to us. Plato was not the only author who
>wrote about this perfect place, another was John Milton's who wrote
>the classic Paradise Lost .
>
> Secular authority and Biblical Circles reports Eden was somewhere in
>the Persian Gulf, this premise is based that the present river
>Euphrates is the one and same, mentioned in the second chapter of the
>book of Genesis. The present river Euphrates and Tigris river flows
>from Turkey through Iraq to the Persian Gulf. According to Ungers
>Commentary on the Old Testament, the "latest archaeological
>designation to the "River of Paradise was somewhere near the head of
>the Persian Gulf, also because the Euphrates is in that approximate
>locale." The problem with this site being the one mentioned in the
>Scriptures is many, one of which, the typography of the earth has
>been altered due to the Genesis flood. The Scriptures also mentions
>more than two rivers flowing out of Eden, in fact in mentions four.
>But more revealing of it's location is because G-d calls it "His
>Holy Mountain."
>
> Just where could this Holy mountain be ? The prophet Ezekiel
>reveals some interesting facts pertaining to Eden. Long before Adam
>had ever been placed there by G-d. Eden had a previous tenant. The
>king of Tyrus was on the "Holy Mountain of G-d," "He was in Eden,
>the Garden of G-d" (cc Ezekiel 28:14-15). The Scriptures reveals
>that this king of Tyrus was the "anointed cherub that covereth." The
>Hebrew word for "cherub" is "keruwb" same word used in Genesis 3:24,
>for the Cher-u-bims that G-d placed at the East of the Garden, to
>keep the way of the tree of life. I believe the chronology of this
>event antecede mankind, and conforms to what is called the "Gap
>Theory."
>
>Dr. Don Levesque
>
>*********************************************************************
>**
Dear Don:
First let me congratulate you on your very professional presentation.
I certainly appreciate your taking the time to aid my understanding.
In your last paragraph, if I understand you correctly, you are
implying the Garden of Eden (Gan Edin) was really located on the
Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Approximately two weeks ago a good friend
from Israel said the same thing and it makes a great deal of sense to
me. Your account is much more lucid and better documented. Thank you
ever so much. Let me know when your new book is to be published and
how I may obtain a copy.
Shalom aleichem----------------------benGoodwyn
**********************************************************************
From: "JOHN R. STROME"
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Pre-Adamic and the Garden of Eden
God bless you all in this discussion.
I have written a book on the subject and the name of it is, "The
Struggle of Creation." ISBN #976-8091-64-9
I am interested in the comments by Dr. Don Levesque. I would like to
review your thesis.
I will make one quote from my book after this scripture; Hebrews 11:3,
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of
God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do
appear.
Now, while the fact of creation is unguestionable, to this day in the
articles of the Jewish Creed, there is no uniform and binding belief
as to the manner of creation, i.e., as to the process whereby the
universe came into existence. The manner of Divine Creative activity
is presented in varying forms and under differing metaphors by
Prophet, Psalmist and Sage; by the Rabbis in Talmudic times, as well
as by our medieval Jewish thinkers. Ge. 1; Ps. 19; Prov. 8:22-31.
My book is off the market for a short time while I insert more
information and expand the bibliography. I very much support a
pre-Adamic age with scripture rightly divided. The new edition should
be ready by January of 1998, the Lord willing. I would appreciate
exchanging information with Dr. Don Levesque.
God bless
Dr. John R. Strome, Th.D.
*************************************************************************
From: Doug Sharp
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Pre-Adamic existence of the earth ???
Excellent topic! As Eddie pointed out there is strong Biblical
evidence for the "gap theory" as it is called. Isaiah 45:18 tells us
the Lord did not create the earth waste, or void. Yet, Genesis 1:2
says it WAS empty. The Hebrew in Genesis 1:2 can also be translated
"now the earth became waste and desolate...". The Hebrew phrase "TOHU
VA VOHU" ("waste and desolate", or "formless and void", etc.) is only
used 3 times in Scripture, and the other two are as an expression of
judgement (see Isaiah 34:11 and Jeremiah 4:23 [which is quite possibly
the description of the happenings between verses 1 and 2 of Genesis]).
Since the phrase "TOHU VA VOHU" is used to speak of judgement in the
other two passages, then we should likewise apply it as such here.
Likewise, darkness is often associated with evil/death and used in
conjunction with divine judgement throughout the Old Testament (see Ex
10:15, 21-23; 1Sam 2:9; Job 3:4-5; Ps 35:6; 105:28; Is 8:22; 13:10;
45:7; and Joel 2:2 for some examples). Ephesians 6:12 connects Satan
and demons with darkness, also. So, if we conclude that this was
indeed divine judgement, then - WHAT/WHO IS BEING JUDGED?? As Eddie
pointed out, and as is supported in other passages, too, it would
appear that this is the judgement of Satan and a pre-Adamic economy of
some sort. Ezekiel 28:11-16 describes Satan and his first and second
abodes. The first was as a canopy over the very throne of God (verse
14), the second was in Eden - the garden of God. The description of
this place would be the creation prior to its destruction and
description in Genesis 1:2. It bears a striking resemblence to the
"new heaven and new earth" described in the Revelation 21:1-22:2. Hmm,
seems that we will return to that perfect creation in the future!
While I personally ascribe to this theory, I would like to add one
word of caution. This is not a "salvation issue" and the Bible does
not give a great deal of information about it, therefore, to take any
kind of dogmatic stance on this issue could be harmful. It should be
pursued as a matter of interest and growth in understanding, but it's
not worth arguing over.
Also, (I guess this is two words of caution!) the "gap theory" is used
by many to try and explain away supposed contradictions between
science and Scripture such as dinosaur bones and geologic columns,
etc., etc. This is dangerous ground and should be avoided. The
Scripture strongly indicates that sin entered into the world through
the sin of one man, Adam, and death through sin (see Romans 5). Do
not fall prey to the idea that we need to modify Scripture and its
teachings to mollify those who claim science disagrees with it. THIS
IS NOT TRUE. There are MORE than enough problems with the "science"
of origins, paleontology, and geology, among others, that to resort to
side-stepping issues is unnecessary. For instance, geologists rely on
the theories of paleontologists' ages of dinosaurs to "age" the
geologic columns, while paleontologists rely on the claims of the age
of the geologic column to "age" the dinosaur bones! Talk about
circular reasoning!
And the other dating methods such as Carbon 14, etc, all have
demonstrable problems not only in use, but in theory. By it's very
nature, the science of origins is a difficult field because it IS NOT
REPEATABLE (a foundation for all real science) and therefore relies
upon assumptions even more than other branches of science. This is
its Achilles' heel, if you will. All science (indeed ALL belief
systems) are based upon basic assumptions THAT CANNOT BE PROVEN.
Depending upon what those assumptions are will determine how you
"interpret" the facts that you discover in your investigations. The
greatest assumption that science follows and which skews all of their
conclusions is of course that there is no God. The second is the
theory (doctrine?) of universalism recorded in 2 Peter 3:3-4, "Know
this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their
mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, 'Where is the
promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all
continues just as it was from the beginning of creation'."
So, in conclusion, His Word is Truth, trust it and believe in it, but
don't get trapped into basing your conclusions or beliefs upon the
world and it's arguments, rather judge the world in light of His
Truth. If His Word is clear, and the world disagrees, guess who's
wrong? (hint: It's not Him!) I believe that this "gap theory" does
allow for a possible understanding of the seeming difference between
the apparant age of the universe (billions of years) and the age of
the earth (only thousands of years), but this can also be explained in
a lot of other ways too, not the least of which is that time is a
created dimension just as matter is, and according to Einstein's
theory of Relativity it is relative to acceleration, mass, and
gravity, therefore raising the simple question of where was the
perspective from? Placing a clock at the edge of the universe, and
one on the earth, we find that what appears to be 6-7 days from the
edge of the universe, is 15 billion years or so from earth.
Interesting!
Hope this helps, sorry for the length - I get carried away!
God Bless you all,
Doug Sharp
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To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com,
"Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup"<heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
From: BSI
Subject: Re: Pre-Adamic existence of the earth ???
Hello friends,
In the interest of providing the other side of the story
regarding the theory of a pre-Adamic civilization I'm sending
along the footnote below. It mokes some important points on
the subject.
Shalom, SJB
1. The 'Gap Theory' and Satan's fall. It has been widely held
by some notable Christians that an earlier world predating
Adam had been created and that it was at the time of that
earlier creation that Lucifer fell. Could this be true?
Unger's Bible Handbook, Revised 1984 edition, page 30,
comments on the 'Gap Theory':
"'... Evangelical scholars have taken a variety of
positions concerning the significance of the creation account
in Gen 1:1-2:3. The opening words of Genesis have been
commonly assumed to refer to the original creation of the
universe. Some scholars prefer, however, to envision a rel-
ative beginning, allowing events such as Satan's fall and the
geological ages of the earth to precede 1:1 or 1:2 (the Gap
Theory).
The issue of a relative beginning (re-creation) princ-
ipally revolves around three considerations: 1.Is the phrase,
'in the beginning,' absolute or relative? 2. Does the word
'create' (Heb. bara') possibly mean 'fashion or re-create'?
3. How do Gen 1:1 and 1:2 fit together grammatically and
chronologically (i.e., is it possible that a gap intervenes)?
The phrase, 'in the beginning', is construed by most
Hebrew scholars as absolute. It should be noted though that
the phrase, 'in the beginning' of John 1:1 antedates the 'in
the beginning' of Gen 1:1 in any case.
The Hebrew term bara' has the basic meaning 'create'
in distinction from the word yasar (to fashion, form).In most
of its OT usages bara' speaks of 'creating something new' or
'bringing into existence' (cf.Isa 41:20;43:1;Ezk 21:30;28:13,
15). As a result, most exegetes argue that bara' serves as
testimony to God's ex hihilo (out of nothing) creation.
The phrase,'Now the earth was formless and empty,' has
been rendered, 'and the earth became...' to portray a chaotic
visitation of divine judgement upon the original earth. To
place a gap in 1:2 is untenable by the Hebrew text, which
shows that all three clauses are circumstantial either to the
main clause in 1:1 or that in 1:3".
In addition to the textual evidence cited above showing the
'gap theory' and an accompanying fall of Satan at that time
as being 'untenable' we have the further and even stronger
testimony of the Scriptures themselves. At the end of all
God's creative work at the end of the sixth creative day "God
saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was
evening, and there was morning -- the sixth day. Thus the
heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast
array". Gen. 1:31 NIV
If Lucifer and a third of God's heavenly host were
already in a state of rebellion at that time it could not be
said that all was "very good." Neither could it be said that
the "heavens ... were completed in all there vast array" for
the spiritual heavens would have been then existing in a
decidedly incomplete, transitional situation. The picture
painted at the end of the sixth day after the creation of
perfect humankind is a picture of all things in heaven and on
earth in perfect submission to the will of the Grand Creator
- thus placing the rebellion of Lucifer as occuring at no
other time than after the creation of man and women. Thus the
fall of 'the serpent' and the man and woman in the Garden as
reported in the Genesis account was the original incident
that marked the fall of all three - bringing rebellion for
the first time into both heaven and earth, corrupting the
perfect 'goodness' of the universe.
This truth is also treated as a given fact in Ezekiel
28:12-15, which portrays Lucifer as being 'perfect' as the
'covering cherub' ... 'in Eden, the garden of God.' Genesis
2:5-15 clearly shows that Eden was 'planted' by God in con-
nection with the creation of man to be his home and was not a
part of some earlier civilization. Thus Ezekiel adds his
inspired testimony to the fact that Lucifer's rebellion must
have occured with the Rebellion in Eden as clearly reported
in Genesis, and not at some speculative earlier date. [Foot-
from God's Patriarchal Order Established, Volume I, chapter 2
available online at http://www.bfree.org]
*************************************************************************
From: Sharon Jurist
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Pre-Adamic existence of the earth ???
There is alot of good info out there from ICR, the Institute for
Creation Research. They have scientists (real scientists) who do
debates, church presentations and seminars, they have a radio show, a
grad school and a web page (http://www.icr.org) not to mention the
many books and resources they make available. ICR's email address is
2065597@mcimail.com Their telephone # is (619) 448-0900 and their
mailing address is P.O. Box 2667, El Cajon, CA 92021. I would suggest
the Creation Trilogy which comes with a CD for your computer. It
covers creation and the scriptures, creation and science, and creation
and society. I think this area of study would be beneficial to ALL
believers.
Shalom in Moshiach,
Sharon
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