From: 	 heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Sent: 	 Tuesday, November 4, 1997 1:52 AM
To: 	 Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup
Subject: Can You Believe Jesus is Messiah and be Jewish?
To:            heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
From:          Debbie Lockledge 
Subject:       Can You Be Both?
I had an interesting conversation with a rabbi who, when I used the term
"Messianic Jew" told me that this was a contradiction in terms.  He went on
to say that one cannot be "Messianic" Jew any more than one could be an
Buddhist Christian or an Islamic Jew -- to be one contradicts being the
other.  According to him, when a Jew becomes a Christian he ceases to be a
Jew.  When I asked him about the Jews expecting a Messiah but not
recognizing Jesus as that Messiah, he said that the term Messiah is a
Christian term, not a Jewish term and, contrary to what I had always been
told, the Jews do not believe in nor are they waiting for a coming Messiah.
Comments?  -Deb.
>From Eddie:
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        This is a traditional Jewish answer based upon the viewpoint 
that Jesus is not Messiah and based upon the Jewish perspective to 
separate any and all "Jewish" beliefs from "Christian" beliefs. In 
reality, the contradiction of terms is calling a belief system in the 
God of Israel as "Jewish" or "Christian".  In Ephesians 4:4-6 it is 
written:
"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope 
of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father 
of all who is above all and through all and in you all".
          If you believe in the God of Israel, are you "Jewish" or 
are you "Christian"?   Both Judaism and Christianity are based upon 
some valid Biblical truths which are mixed with man-made traditions 
and  doctrines. Man-made traditions and doctrine separate belief in the 
God as Israel as "Jewish" or "Christian".
         Sadly, I have seen some individuals who have a heart for the 
"Hebraic Roots" want to convert to Judaism as an expression of 
embracing what they learn about their roots. However, in reality, 
they are only "trading" one set of valid Biblical truths mixed with 
man-made traditions (Christianity) for another set of valid Biblical 
truths mixed with man-made traditions (Judaism). In reality, these 
people are seeking a "religious system" rather than a PERSONAL 
RELATIONSHIP with the God of Israel. Faith in the God of Israel is 
meant to be LIVED not joining a "club" (religious denomination).
          It has always been a  Biblical "Jewish" belief to believe 
in a coming Jewish Messiah. In fact, one of the 13 articles of 
"Jewish" faith as composed by the famous Jewish Rabbi, Moses 
Maimonides (Rambam) is belief in a Jewish Messiah.
          Messiah comes from the Hebrew word "Mashiach" which means 
"the anointed One". The Mashiach (anointed one) was also seen to 
be the Moshiach (redeemer).  This was and has always been a long 
standing "Jewish" belief even before the word "Christian" ever existed.
           Reform Jews do not believe in a personal Messiah. To them, 
Messiah is a world condition of peace. It is a "concept" and term 
that reflects a time in the future when things on the earth will be 
"ideal". Perhaps, Deb, you were talking to a Reform Jew who made this 
statement.
          On contrary,  an Orthodox Jew believes in a coming PERSONAL 
Messiah. In fact, the Orthodox Rabbi's teach that the Messiah will suffer 
and Messiah will be King. They call the "suffering Messiah" (Messian 
ben Yosef --- Messiah son of Joseph). They call the "Kingly Messiah" 
(Messiah ben David --- Messiah son of David). However, they have 
separated this as being two individuals rather than it being both in 
one person (Yeshua/Jesus).
          Yeshua/Jesus was called the "Son of David". This is a 
ancient Jewish title for the "Kingly Messiah".
          In John 1:43,45 it is written:
"The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee and findeth 
Philip and saith unto him, follow me ... Philip findeth Nathaniel and 
saith unto him, We have found HIM of whom MOSES IN THE TORAH 
and the  PROPHETS did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the SON OF 
JOSEPH"
        John 1:45 has a double meaning. Of course, the earthly 
"father" of Yeshua/Jesus was Joseph. So, in a LITERAL sense, Jesus 
was the son of Joseph. However, the term for the suffering Messiah 
was "Messiah ben Joseph ... Messiah son of Joseph". Both the TORAH 
and the Prophets wrote about a SUFFERING MESSIAH. This is the 
message  and meaning behind Nathaniel's statement in John 1:45.
       In John 1:48,49 it is written:
"Jesus saw Nathenael coming to him and saith of him, "Behold an 
Israelite indeed in whom is no guile! Nathaniel said unto him, Whence 
knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip 
called thee, when you was UNDER THE FIG TREE, I saw thee. Nathaniel 
answered and said unto him, Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are 
the KING OF ISRAEL"
      In these passages, Yeshua/Jesus is called the "Son of Joseph" 
(a reference to Messiah ben Yosef) and the "KING OF ISRAEL" (a 
reference to Messiah ben David).
      Yeshua/Jesus told Nathaniel that He saw Nathaniel "under the 
fig tree". This is a Jewish IDIOM for the Messianic Age. Yeshua/Jesus 
told Nathaniel that He saw that Nathaniel would be in the Messianic 
Age with Yeshua/Jesus. Nathaniel knew that Yeshua/Jesus was talking 
about the Messianic Age and "seeing" Nathaniel with Him in the 
Messianic Age. So, by understanding what Yeshua/Jesus was telling 
him, Nathaniel recognized that Yeshua/Jesus was the Messiah and the 
KING OF ISRAEL (Messiah ben David who was seen ruling during the 
Messianic Age).
       The reasoning of religious Jews who do not believe that Jesus 
is Messiah which states that if you are Jewish and then believe in 
Yeshua/Jesus that you are no longer Jewish is convoluted. This is 
like telling a male or female that after they start believing in 
Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah that they no longer are male or female.
       Yeshua/Jesus was/is a Jew. He was born a Jew. He lived on this 
earth as a Jew. He died a Jew. In fact, Messiah lived a type of 
Orthodox Jewish lifestyle. When He returns and rules and reigns 
during the Messiah Age, it will be as a Torah observant Orthodox Jew.
       So, it is Jewish to believe in a Torah observant Orthodox Jew 
as Messiah? Of course it is! This is a foundational and fundamental 
Jewish belief that the Messiah will be Jewish! So if a Jew believes 
in a Torah observant Orthodox Jew as Messiah does that make them 
not Jewish? Belief in Messiah is the most Jewish thing that a Jewish 
person can do. It is more Jewish than wearing a tallit, tzi-tzit, a 
kippah, putting a Mezuzah on your door or being circumcised. 
Therefore, a Jew who believes in a Jewish Messiah (Yeshua/Jesus) will 
continue to be Jewish. He will be a Jew who believes in Messiah or 
otherwise known as a Messianic Jew.
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