From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 1997 12:43 AM
To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup
Subject: Bible Versions Comments - Part II
From: Jim Snyder
To: <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Bible Versions
Yahweh has stated that NOT one yod or tiddle will be changed in His
Scriptures. I'm sure that the original scrolls have NO yods or tiddles(?)
changed in them. Yahweh does NOT lie!
As to men, lets NOT say they lie, while ALL Bible versions are a result of the
paradigms of the translators, being by men, they will have error, intentionally
or non-intentionally. After my initial scare about new bible versions and
scare about the King James version, I came to realize that the most accurate
sources are interlinear versions (and there are more than one, difference
result from use of different original manuscripts).
Since I started studying and learning Hebrew, it is much easier to see that
Strong applies one number for many different original Hebrew words. A single
Strong's number is NOT reliable as Strong applied a number to a word and took
the meaning from and based upon the translators' usage and NOT the original
Hebrew meaning and usage.
For instance, Strong's and the translator's could NOT accept that Yahweh said
he made us just a little lower than Elohim, so they replaced Elohim with
angels. This does NOT convey the full value and worth Yahweh has placed upon
us. This indicates we may be created a little above, NOT below the angels.
The advantage of reading many versions and comparing them with interlinear's
is that sometime the newer versions DO make a passage clearer and are more in
keeping with the original meaning.
Are we NOT admonished to study Yahweh's word day and night, contemplate on it
in our waking, etc. Yahweh's real test is will we love (both philio and agape)
one another even while we understand the Scriptures differently. I am NOT a
scholar, but I KNOW Yahweh expects us to search and study and to be open to
having His truth's revealed anew to us in clearer format. "Church's" usually
divide the member's of Yahweh's ekklesia. This is a crime, especially since
most of the divisions are on questionable or unreliable interpretations of
Yahweh's plans and instructions to us.
Have good heart, the challenge of different versions is but another test to
us.
Respectfully,
Jim Snyder
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From: Fredrick L. Murphy
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Bible Versions
Shalom Bruce,
I too have read NEW AGE BIBLE VERSIONS, along with several other
documentations, pamphlets, booklets, Web-sites, etc. During my
reading, I have seen things that are both in favor of "modern
translations" and also things which have spoken against them. My
personal conclusion is that although the King James Version
(authorized) is NOT perfect, it is indeed a better choice for numerous
reasons. The reasons in favor of this version range from "idealistic"
beliefs such as the fact that it's been tried and proven for so very
long, to the hearts of the men who wrote it, all the way to the
liberal agenda and satanic devices it DOES NOT include. Eddie has
said well, in my opinion, that the KJ may be the best
translation...although it is not perfect. We can, however, always
depend on God to guide and direct us in all Truth. So as long as we
have a longing, seeking heart for that....we will behold Him as best
as we can.
May the Lord guide and keep us, and renew a right spirit within us.
Fredrick
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To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
From: Lori Eldridge
Subject: Re: Bible Versions
Hi Bruce,
>From: Bruce Barham
>To: "heb_roots_chr@geocities.com"
><heb_roots_chr@geocities.com> Subject: Bible Versions
>
Being as this is my first time posting let me give a brief
introduction. I am not Jewish. I have been a Christian for 15 years
coming from a Calvary Chapel background. I spent several of those
years involved in witnessing to those coming out of cults because I
was raised in one myself. The last 3-4 years I have been involved in a
support group on the Internet for those coming out of the Jehovah's
Witnesses where we discuss bible doctrine on a mailing list called
Channel-d (D stands for doctrine).
A little over a year ago I started the mailing list Tcode where we
have been discussing Codes in the Torah and trying to replicate the
original Code theory as published in the Statistical Science Journal
1994. This list is peopled by mostly Christians but about 1/4 of them
are Jewish with several Messianic Jewish persons on board so we
occasionally got invovled in doctrinal discussions. It has been an
enriching experience learning about Jewish beliefs and heritage while
being involved with this list and has caused me to want to learn
more---even to the point of wanting to join a Messianic fellowship
because the Christian churchs I'm familiar with have suddenly become
too shallow for me. I am happy to report that I found a messianic
group last night though the aid of a member of this list and will be
attending it tomorrow--an all day event--even if it is a 20 mile
drive. Praise the Lord!
>
>My growing awareness of the Judaic roots of Christianity and
>continual study has resulted in a scary side effect. I have begun to
>doubt the correctness of many of the Bible versions I have
>historically held dear.
>
I know the feeling. I have just about every translation there is and
it is disconcerting to find errors in a translation that you have
cherished for years. I use the NIV but only because that is the one
that contains all my notes--not that I believe it is more accurate.
Since being involved in the Codes I have been intently studying Hebrew
and just since then I have become aware that translations do not
always tell us what the origial text is relaying and how the words in
Hebrew do not always match up to a word we use in English.
I was also shocked to see that the major Christian bookstore in my
large city contains NOT ONE Hebrew Bible. You have to order them
separately. You also have to special order Hebrew Commentaries and
other Hebrew helps but there are numerous books on studying Greek.
Isn't that odd?
>
>What do we read?!?!
>
I agree that there are problems with each translation. I will add one
more--the Jewish NT by David Stern. I don't have a copy of this but I
heard that he pushes Post Tribulationism (which I don't agree with)
and this will definitely affect his interpretation of the passages
related to the endtimes. Also I heard his commentaries tend to divide
the body of Christ into two camps (Jewish believers vs Gentile
believers) which is not a good thing. We are all one in Christ.
Therefore I will not buy his bible for that reason.
>
>I don't mean to sound paranoid, but I just want some opinions as to
>which versions are the most correct and what we should be aware of
>with regard to errors as we study. I've asked this of other websites
>with no reply. First Fruits of Zion has not responed even though I
>asked twice.
>
I don't think you will find one and I think the confusion will get
worse in that department as time goes on because of the coming
apostasy. The best solution is to dig into the original text and see
what it is reallllllly saying--even for those words that you think you
know the meaning of.
I keep a good lexicon handy when I'm studying the Bible, and I don't
mean Strongs either as he does not concern himself with context as the
Lexicon's do. Strongs takes all possible meanings of the word and
lumps them all into one. I use Strongs only for his concordance and
rely on the Lexicon's for the meaning. I use Gesenius Lexicon (with a
Christian revision) and Brown Driver and Briggs's Lexicon for the OT
and Thayer's Greek Lexicon for the NT. There may be better lexicon's
but these are all I can afford at present. The Lexicons are all hard
to understand because they use so many abbreviations that you need to
memorize but once you get past that problem they are a gold mine of
knowledge.
I also have Zodhiathe's Gk and Heb Lexicon in the back of my Hebrew
Greek Key study Bible---this was the first book I bought years ago when
trying to learn the original words and it might be a good place to
start for someone on a limited budget however it only references the
"key" words in the text and does not list all the words in it's
concordance and it's Lexicon does not list all words either. If it did
the book would be about 5 times thicker. Therefore you still need a
better Lexicon. I would not recommend it if you are going to be
getting into a serious study of the original languages. You would be
better served by buying the needed Lexicon's separately.
>
>I've decided to stick with the KJV and recognize the Living G-d's
>grace and mercy is active if I ignorantly stumble because of false
>doctrines obtained from tainted text. I figure He knows I am trying.
> I have little doubt his boundless love will cover my sins which are
>due to following poor translations.
>
On the other hand you might consider "From everyone who has been given
much, much will be damanded; and from the one who has been entrusted
with much, much more will be asked." (Lk 12:48). In other words, I
think God intends for us to keep growing and not become stagnant in
what we know concerning his Word. We can never learn too much.
>
> I'm not manic or losing sleep over this,
>but I would like to hear from you version-wise brothers and sisters
>in Yeshua.
>
>I am planning to take Hebrew and Greek (Hebrew first), but until I
>can read and comprehend in these languages I'm shackled to English.
>
I'll be glad to help with what meager knowledge I have on the subject.
God Bless,
Lori
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To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Bible Versions
From: Beverly E Bull
Hello!
This is an opinion about a good version of the Bible, which does not
have an anti-Jewish bias. I use the New American Standard Bible,
published by Moody Press - the Ryrie Study Bible. I spent hours
looking through various versions, and especially reading the notes
written in the margins as "helps." This one has countless notes that
correctly interpret or "read" the Scriptures, but NOT with a
"replacement theology" viewpoint. After living in Israel, I found
myself impatient and frustrated with versions that continually put
"the church" into Scriptures that God said "Israel" in!!!!
Another small reason that I chose this version is because Moody
Bible Institute teaches many courses on the Jewishness of the Bible,
and has Messianic believers' books as part of their curriculum. They
seem to be trying to not separate the church from the Jewish roots of
our faith.
Bev Bull
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From: Mark Woods
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Bible Versions
grab a computerized version/s...i read along, and when i really want
to dig in, i just pop iup the strong's numbers and i can use a online
lexicon to understand the greek/hebrew words...
several computerized bibles around today, including a 'freeware'
called the online bible. check it out
mark
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From: Kathleen Marion
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Bible Versions
Eddie, I have a New King James version called the Spirit Filled Life
Bible.
Many of the study notes and footnotes have Jewish explainations. It
is very good.
Kathleen
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From: Pastor Jerry Baker
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Bible Versions
Dear Eddie,
I seldom am in total agreement with anyone, but this time I agree
wholeheartly with you on the KJV even to the AMG Key translation of
it. I disagree with many of the publishers notes, but I find the
Hebrew, Greek dictionary's to be invaluable!!!
Pastor Jerry Baker,
(House of Prayer)
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From: Stephen Zimmerman
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Bible Versions
Here are a few thoughts...
The Maze of English Translations
So many versions of the Bible are available, but they don't all agree
on every point. And most people can't buy them all, so how do we
choose?
The best thing is to be conversant in the original languages. Then
you can compare, say, Mark 7:19 to the NIV, NASB, etc. and say, "Hey!
The Greek doesn't say that!" At least not here! (And the Acts 10
vision was an allegory.) All it says is, "Nothing that enters a man
from outside is able to profane him, because it does not enter the
heart, but the belly, and it goes out into the wastebowl, purging all
foods." (The others say, "By this He declared all foods clean"!) The
context is hygiene, but these translations construe it to mean that
Jesus was contradicting God's law, and make it look as if that is
actually in the text. The KJV has it right. Any translation is by
nature an interpretation, but some acknowledge that by putting words
that "smooth out" (or explain) in italics; paraphrases usually don't.
In some cases, modern translations do improve on the KJV. The latter
translates Luke 17:21, "The kingdom of God is within you" (entoV
umin), which, to modern ears, at least, could give rise to the ideas
that God is in everyone, that the Kingdom will never have a visible
form, etc. The Kingdom certainly wasn't in the hearts of these
Pharisees who were out to entrap the King in His words. The RSV does
better, saying, "The kingdom of God is in your midst" (but that
version has other problems). "Among you" might be best, showing use
that He was speaking of Himself as being the firstfruits of that
kingdom.
If you have to choose between learning Hebrew or Greek well, go with
Hebrew, for all of the authors of Scripture (except maybe Luke) were
Jewish, and even if they wrote in Greek, they thought in Hebrew. By
that measure, 90% of the Bible was composed in Hebrew. [Bivin &
Blizzard, 1994] "The Kingdom of God is at hand" is a Hebraism in the
Greek text. You can deduce that "at hand" means "nearby", but in Greek
you can't tell that it refers to place, not time-so it had to be
referring to Jesus' own presence.
Some use the KJV only, not because the translation is necessarily
better than the rest; some major archaeological and linguistic
discoveries since 1611 have added much precision. But the KJV is
based on the Greek Textus Receptus that was watched very carefully to
be sure it was not tampered with as the Codices Sinaiticus and
Vaticanus had been-to make it line up with a particular church's
doctrinal position, which was based on their own interpretation, and
no other translation is based exclusively on this one (not even the
"New KJV"). There are older copies of Vaticanus and Sinaiticus
available, but only because they were questioned by many, and so
didn't get worn out, as the trusted text -which many sacrificed their
lives to preserve-did. (The Hebrew doesn't present as much of this
kind of problem because the Jews have guarded it much more carefully
all along.)
Some newer translation also water down the specific wording in order
to make it sound more normal to our 20th-century ears. For example,
they may shorten "the Lord Jesus Christ" to simply "Jesus" or "the
Lord". But there is nothing superfluous in God's Word. Anything that
looks redundant is repeated for a purpose. We also have to bear in
mind that a "strong delusion"-a counterfeit that will look extremely
convincing-is coming, and precision with Scripture will be the only
way to avoid being deceived. The Antichrist could very easily twist
"the Lord" to seem to be speaking of himself.
Every version has problems, so compare several of them to get the
right shade of meaning. Even if you never study Greek, get an
interlinear Bible that follows the text word-for-word, or one that has
a number key to the Greek or Hebrew words, and thus you can at least
get a better idea of what is actually there. It matters!
Stephen
***********************************************************************
From: Malcolm Vine
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Bible Versions
Dear Friends
I have just begun receiving the post from the Hebrew Roots Newsgroup
(and each day is exciting because of what comes up), so I don't know
whether what I have to offer has already been mentionned. however,
good things bear repeating so here goes!
I have puzzled for a long time about the problems posed by different
versions of the Scriptures. When I learned about the Westcot and Hort
stable of translations a few years ago, I reluctantly abandonned my
well worn and marked NIV and went to the NKJV - which is still the
Bible I teach from.
But the Lord has been leading me more and more into understanding
what I, as a wild olive, have been grafted into. I only realised how much
I didn't know, after years of studying and teaching theology, when I
started to read the Jewish New Testament (David Stern) and wished
that there was something similar that would unlock the Tenach.
Then I found another jewel in the gem box for Bible Students. I'm
sure all of you in the States know about it, but here in the UK it is
quite difficult to get hold of. It's the whole Bible and is called
EXEGESES Ready Research Bible
A literal translation and transliteration of Scripture.
It is the work of Herb Jahn, it is based upon the KJV and is keyed to
Strong's.
Each verse of Scripture is presented in an unique form,
The KJV text is in regular type. The text under exegesis is in
italics. The text of exegeses is in bold type.
So Genesis !:1, 2 appears like this...this is just a sample text
In the beginning
God Elohim created the heaven heavens and the earth
and the earth was without form became waste and void
and darkness was upon the face of the deep abyss
And the Spirit of God Elohim
moved upon the face of the waters.
Although there is place for improvement, and Brother Jahn, is open for
constructive help for future editions (according to the introduction),
this has been an absolute gem in my personal search for the
understanding of God's Word. I hope someone will search it out and
be similarly blessed.
It is published by World Bible Publishers, Iowa Falls, IA 50126 and
printed in South Korea.
Every blessing to every one who contributes to the Newsgroup and to
you, Eddie, for you vision and ministry.
Thanks
Malcolm Vine
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From: Findlay Austin
To: <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Bible Versions Bruce Barham
Hi Bruce
Till you are fluent in Hebrew get yourself a Hebrew/Greek Interlinear
Bible, there is one done by Green. This will enable you to read the
portions literally
Findlay
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