From:    heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
To:      "Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup"<heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Date:    Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:05:23 +0000
Subject: Re: The Wise Men

 

>
>To:            heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
>From:          Lori Eldridge 
>Subject:       Re: Christmas in the Bible
>
>
>You said:
>>                                  THE WISE MEN
>>
>>         Finally, the Bible does NOT say that there were THREE wise
>>men. Once again this is Christian Christmas tradition that has no
>>Biblical basis and once again we read the account of the birth of
>>Yeshua/Jesus through our 20th century, Western Christian mind rather
>>than from the culture in the day in which the text was written. A
>>famous song is sung at Christmas time from which we get the concept
>>of THREE wise men. The song is ...
>>
>>"We THREE Kings from ORIENT are
>>bearing gifts we travel afar ..."
>>
>>             This is a nice song but it is unbiblical. The wise men
>>were NOT from the ORIENT. It was NOT the chinese who were looking
>>for a Jewish Messiah. It was Jewish RABBI'S.
>>
>
>Hi Eddie,
>
>I recently read an article in the "Personal Update" magazine  by
>Chuck Missler that I would like your opinion on that portrays these
>Magi as being from Medo-Persia. (I was going to just post the URL but
>it is from the Dec. '97 issue and not available yet so the following
>is my own paraphrase of that article).
>
>Chuck explains that the Persian Magi (of which Daniel was a Rab-Mag
>or Chief of the Magi) were established as a state religion of Persia
>by Darius. These Magi were considered to be experts in the
>interpretation of Dreams. They provided civil as well as political
>counsel. It was their duty to choose and elect the king of the realm.
>
>The Parthians (a part of the Achaemenian Empire) had captured
>Jerusalem several times, the last time being when they swept all
>Roman opposition completely out of Palestine (Including Herod himself
>who fled to Rome). Jewish sovereignty was restored under the
>Parthians and Jerusalem fortified. Herod had been crowned "King of
>the Jews" by Caesar but he was not able to occupy his own capital
>city for 3 more years until the Romans recaptured Jerusalem from the
>Parthians.
>
>At the time of Christ's birth Parthia was racked by internal
>dissension and there were fears that the current king would be
>deposed with the Magi possibly involved in political maneuvering to
>choose his successor.  Chuck believes it is possible that the Magi
>might have taken advantage of this dissention to try to establish a
>new dynasty using Daniel's prophecies of the Messiah and thus coming
>to Palestine to seek the prophesied king. He therefore believes it
>could have been a group of Persian-Parthian "King-makers" who entered
>Jerusalem towards the end of Herod's reign and because of the
>Parthian-Roman rivalry this was  the reason for Herod's anxiety about
>their coming to Jerusalem.
>
>I would appreciate it if you could give us your own opinion why this
>possible scenario is, or is not, true.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Lori Eldridge
>
>From Eddie:
>**************
>
>          Lori,
>
>       Parts of what Chuck was trying to explain is true. The
> confusion comes from the fact that the Greek word for "wise men" (3097) which
>is "Magos" or Magi CAN MEAN the following as given in the Thayer's
>Greek Lexicon under the word "magos"  (the name given by the
>Babylonians (Chaldeans), Medes,  Persians, and others to the wise
>men, teachers, priests, physicians,  astrologers, seers, interpreters
> of dreams, augurs, soothsayerss,  sorcerers etc).   This was the
>term given for Babylonian astrologers,  interpreter of dreams etc.
>
>      However, while Daniel would have been given the title of 
>"Ravmag" in Babylon because he was a interpreter of dreams, Daniel
>was not an astrologer or soothsayer. Astrology and soothsaying is
>forbidden in the Torah and Daniel was a Torah observant Jew.
>
>        However, the sages of Israel (Rabbi's) were also called 
> "wise men" or Chakamim. The Hassidic Jews are called CHABAD. This is an
>acronym. The CH stands for Chachma or wisdom. Those who study the
>Torah and taught it to the people are called, "wise men" or sages.
>
>In Psalm 19:7 it says:
>
>"The TORAH of the Lord ... making WISE the simple"
>
>In Hosea 4:6, God calls the TORAH KNOWLEDGE as it is written:
>
>"My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge because you have
>rejected knowledge ... seeing that you have forgotten the TORAH of
>your God ..."
>
>In Deuteronomy 4:5-6 it is written:
>
>"Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments ... keep therefore
>and do them; for this is your WISDOM ..."
>        
>       It is quite possible that in the (anti-torah) translation of 
>the NT, that the wrong word was used. Many believe that the NT was
>originally written in Hebrew and later translated into Greek. At the
>present time, we only have a copy of the Greek manuscripts.
>
>       The Gospel is to the JEW FIRST (Romans 1:16). Therefore, the
>       first 
>one's to see the Jewish Messiah were most assurredly Jewish Rabbi's
>called "wise men" (teachers of the Torah) not Babylonian astrologers.
>
>
>        It was very common for Rabbi's in the days of Yeshua/Jesus to
>        
>learn a trade. Yeshua/Jesus Himself was a carpenter before He began
>His public ministry. It would not be unthinkable for Jewish Rabbi's
>to also know how to read and understand the stars. Most Christians
>don't realize that the redemptive plan of God is told in the stars
>(Dr. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Ministries in Ft. Lauderdale,
>Florida has some very good information on this).  Most Christians
>only understand the negative aspect of astrology in today's society. 
>Most Christianis don't know that each of  the twelve tribes of Israel
>has an associated constellation in the galaxy. 
>
>        Therefore, by not having an understanding of the Hebraic 
>Roots of your faith, it is very easy to misunderstand the meaning of
>the "wise men" and what they came to see and why.          
>
>*********************************************************************
>
>

To:            heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
From:          pottersclay@mail.icnet.net (Randy Felton)
Subject:       Re: The Wise Men

Dear Eddie,

The question of wise men is a good one.  Correct, there are not three men
mentioned, but three gifts; gold, frankensense and myrrh.  This is where
the idea of three wise men, one to carry each gift, right?  The part about
being oriental is well explained by you.  The thing that is overlooked is
the pattern present.  The Tabernacle and later the Temple was oriented East
and West.  To enter the Temple proper to approach the Holy Place one,
including the High Priest, would have to travel from East going West to
approach God.  This is a pattern that follows through the Bible.   East to
West to going toward God, West to East is going away from God.  This is a
type we can look for.  So, here again, we have "wise men" coming from the
East going West to seek Yeshua.  This fits the pattern and shows the
divinity of Yeshua.  The "wise men" who came to seek him traveled East to
West to come into the presence of God, just as they would do in the Temple.
 The concept and pattern remain intact.  This is far more important than
the number in the entourage.

Shalom, 

Randy Felton

*************************************************************************

heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com wrote:
> 
> To:            heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
> From:          Lori Eldridge
> Subject:       Re: Christmas in the Bible
> 
> You said:
> >                                  THE WISE MEN
> >
> >         Finally, the Bible does NOT say that there were THREE wise
> >men....
>>

From:          Luana Fabry 
To:           heb_roots_chr@geocities.com 
Subject:       Re: The Wise Men & the Stable


Actually, the Bible doesn't even say he was born in a stable. Laid in
a manger, yes. The manger was a small watering trough. I believe
Yeshua was born in a Sukkah. As it was Sukkot, all the homes in
Beit-lechem would have had their sukkah up. As there was no room in
the house, the kind owner would have given up his priviledge of
spending Sukkot in his sukkah, and allowed Yoseph and Miriam to stay
there. If this were the case, then Yeshua fulfilled his "tabernacling"
down to the smallest detail.

Luana Fabry

*********************************************************************
1