Subject: Re: All about Marcion
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 01:15:44 +0000
From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Reply-To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
To: "Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup"<heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>

From:          Stefan Blad
To:            Hebrew Roots <heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com>
Subject:       Re: All about Marcion

*****************************

(Reply to the article: All About Marcion by Solomon)

Uwe Hutter:
**********

> Hi Stefan,

> no, I have never heard that sort of doctrine in any church, neither is it
> believed or preached in mine. Instead of fighting a straw man, it would be
> nice to face the facts. Macion's theaching was condemned by the church, as
> stated, as heretical centuries ago. Sorry, but I can't find any
> relationship to our churches today.

Stefan:
*******

Shalom Uwe.

I have come across this situation in several places, such as Sweden, France
and Spain.

Uwe Hutter:
**********

Helo Stefan,
>
> the accusation you are promoting is sufficiently serious for me to find
out
> to which churches you are referring to. I want to have specific facts, not
> accusations of a general type. What exactly did they teach in these
> churches you are referring to that has to to with Marcion's error? I would
> be thankful for an aclaration. Sorry to bother you with this type of
> commentaries, but I think the truth is important enough to avoid falling
in
> cheap propagandism. As you are interested in truth, I think it won't be
> difficult for you to answer me. I appreciate it. By the way, I am still
> eagerly waiting for an answer from your Hebrew teacher. I am sure he is
> working on it.

> Greetings

Stefan:
*******

Shalom beloved brother Uwe!

I'll try to answer your questions.

Solomon:
********

> The main thesis of Marcion's system
> was that the gospel of Yeshua (Yeshua) is entirely a gospel of love to the
> exclusion of the Mosaic Law.

Stefan:
*******

I have heard this teaching almost every time John 8 is preached in the
Swedish
churches. For a long time that represented a problem for me because it was
difficult for me to understand that Yeshua could forgive this woman and
therefore, not fulfill the law of adultery. I had heard from many
Pentecostal preachers (my grandfather was one of the pioneers of the
Pentecostal movement in Sweden) that Jesus changed the law and manifested
love
and forgivness instead of the law that condemned people.

It was very difficult for me to accept this teaching because I couldn't
accept the idea that Yeshua coul break the law, because that is to sin. This
was a problem for me until the holy Spirit made it possible for me to
understand how Yeshua could forgive her, since HE took on Himself her
punishment and died in her place a few months later. Her sin HAD to be
punished, as all sin must, and it was punished through the Messiah's death
and resurreccion. Forgiveness of sin is only possible by his death and
resurreccion.

John 1:17 is almost allways understood as though the Torah was not given by
grace, as ver. 16 says, because many translations use the word "but" between
the law and Yeshua. I believe the law was given by grace, Sal 119:29, but I
had never heard it preached in all my life in any church either in Sweden or
in Spain, untill I got in touch with the Messianic movement.

Solomon:
********

> He believed that the original gospel of Yeshua
> (Yeshua) had been corrupted by Judaizing tendencies among the earliest
> disciples and that the Old Testament had no validity for Christians (let
me
> remind you that this is the Bible Yeshua (Yeshua) used).

Stefan:
*******

If you keep the shabbat you are accused of being "under the law". If you
wear
tsitsits in your garment you are accused of judaizing. I don't need to tell
you
where this happens. You can find it everywhere.

Solomon:
********

> According to  Marcion, only Saint Paul had correctly understood the
> original teaching of  Yeshua (Yeshua) . Marcion's distinction between the
> Old Testament G-d of law and Paul's G-d of love has led to his being
> called a Gnostic.

Stefan:
*******

The interpretation of how to understand the Torah is almost always based on
a
superficial  reading of Galatians and other of Pauls writings in stead of
Yeshua's teaching in Math 5:17-19 or Math 23:3. Most preachers and others
don't preach Math 5:17-19 as if it was for us today, because they base their
understanding of the law not on the Messiah, but on THEIR own understanding
of Paul. So it gives the impression that there is a difference between Paul
and Yeshua as far as the Torah is concerned.

I have found nine different meanings of the word "law" in the Bible, and you
need to know what the word means in every case if you want to understand the
text correctly. Most Christians don't understand the difference between "the
law" and to be "under the law".

Solomon:
********

>                          Marcion's Belief System
>
>  He regarded Paul as the only faithful apostle of Christ. In fact, he
> maintained that the original apostles corrupted Yeshua' (Yeshua) teachings
> by mixing it with legalism. This is the same message often preached in the
> churches today when we hear "Replacement Theology" or that we are no
> longer under the Law (Torah-teaching of G-d) but under grace alone. I
> challenge you to reconcile that statement with Yeshua (Yeshua) in Matt.
5:17
> and following  where he states that the Law will never pass away until
> heaven and earth pass away.

Stefan:
*******

We often hear the words "law or grace" as if they were against each other.
The problem is that most of those who teach this concept don't establish any
difference between the legalistic system built upon the Torah of God as a
way of salvation and selfjustification, and the Torah as the eternal Word of
God.

I have heard three teachers in three different Bible Schools in Sweden teach
that the law was no longer valid in Christ. Romans 10:4 is very often
translated

that way. The epistle to the Romans is generally taught as though the law
had
been done away with in Christ. For example, that happens in the Assamblies
of God's Bible School in Spain.

Solomon:
********

> Marcion rejected the Jewish Bible completely, and it is that "replacement
> theology" that can be found in the majority of Christian churches today.

Stefan:
*******

One thing is the teaching and another is the practice. Even if the common
teaching of the Evangelical churches is that all 66 books of the Bible ARE
the
word of God, in most churches I know the New Testament is more important
than the Old. The Old Testament is referred to as "the law" and "as the law
has
come to an end in Christ and therefore christians cannot follow the
teachings of the Old Testament anymore" something that appears to be a very
common thought in Christian circles.

Solomon:
********

> I find it rather amazing that shortly after the first century the Gentile
> church in Rome rejected "anti-Semitism and anti-Judaism" but would
> espouse it within another century! Marcion distinguished the God of the
Old
> Testament from the God of the New Testament and the Gospels. Marcion,
> being influenced by Persian dualism (two forces in the universe, one good
> and one bad,who are constantly fighting it out for supremacy) believed
that
> these were two individual deities, each within its own independent
> existence. First,there was the Creator God who created the material
> universe. This was the God of Israel, which was a totally different God
from
> the Father spoken of in the Gospel of Christ. The Father God was the good
> and merciful God and
> the God of Israel and the Old Testament was the bad God.

Stefan:
*******

I was once visiting my aunt in the south of France. In one of the Bible
studies in the Evangelical church we visited, the pastor said something like
this, after we had read a text from the Old Covenant: "The God of the Old
Testament is not the same as the One in the New Testament. We cannot get to
know God through the Old Testament because God's revelation is not the same
as in the New".

In my opinion, it's not difficult to come across this kind of thinking in
all Evangelical Christianity. My parents taught me to pray to Jesus instead
of praying to the Father. (I'm not criticizeing them, I'm VERY greatful to
God for the teaching and faith of my parents who brought me to the Lord).
The problem for me was that in my mind there was a big difference between
the
Father and the Son. For me the Father was the God of the Old Testament, who
was judging people and killing sinners whilst demanding obedience from the
people.

The Son was much more full of grace and love, so it was easier for me to
pray
to the Son, because he loved me. When I read John 16:27 the Spirit made me
change the way I thought on this issue making it possible for me to
understand deep in my heart that the FATHER loves me, and not only the Son.

It is very common to think that the Father wants to punish you for your
sins, according to the law, but the Son came to give you love and grace and
to do away with the law of the Father. That's how I was brought up in Sweden
in a Pentecostal and Evangelical environment and I have come across the same
situation here in Spain since I came here as a missionary 14 years ago.
Most people don't know that THE FATHER LOVES THEM.

Solomon:
********

> Marcion's understanding followed the same line as that of the Gnostic
> schools. They taught that the God who made the material world was an
> inferior deity. He was inferior in both status and morality alike. The
> superior deity or the supreme God was pure spirit. This idea is reflected
in
> doctrines which teach that flesh is evil and spirit is good.

Stefan:
*******

This is also a very common thought in the Christian world. We have been
taught that the material things are bad and that the spiritual things are
good.
But this is simply Greek philosophy.

When I started studing the Word, I became aware of the fact that ALL THE
MATERIAL WORLD WAS GOOD, Gen 1:31 and that God created the trees as
something PLEASANT to the sight, and GOOD for food, Gen 2:9.
This became a revolution for my gnostic Christian way of thinking.

Solomon:
*******

>                               Marcion's Anti-Semitism
>
>  Marcion's new scriptures included no part of the Old Testament (Jewish
> Bible) and were written in Greek. For Marcion the Old Testament had passed
away and was replaced by his "New Testament." Have you heard this same thing
preached in your churches before? For Marcion, the church was to replace the
synagogue, grace was to replace the Law (Torah), pagan holidays were to
replace the Holy Days of the Lord as found in Lev. 23, spiritual Israel was
to replace physical Israel, and the church was Israel's replacement and was
now to receive all that had been promised to Israel. This is replacement
theology at its best.

Stefan:
*******

Owe, are you celebrating shabbat as the day of the Lord? Are you following
the biblical moon-calendar to find out when to celebrate pesach and shavuot?
Are you teaching that there are two Israels, one physical and another
spiritual?

Do you believe God has two people or one? Does God have two women?

In the 1960th edition of the old Reina-Valera translation of the Bible in
Spanish, the Bible Society has changed Rom 11:17 and instead of writing
"among them" they have put "instead of them". The translation of Rom 11:17
has been affected by replacemente theology. Do you find this way of thinking
where you live? I'm very surprised by the strong reaction in your letter.
Why do you react so strongly? What is it in you that reacts?

I really bless you and wish you all good.

Love in the Messiah our only Savior.

Stefan Blad

*********************************************************************