Subject: Re: The Bride (The Church or Israel)? Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 01:49:01 +0000 To: "Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup"<heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
> >From: Robo Remy >To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com >Subject: Re: The Bride (The Church or Israel)? > >Eddie - > >I STRONGLY CHALLENGE YOU to produce ONE single scripture in the >entire Tanakh or B'rit Hadashah that equates Israel with the Church. > Israel is a distinct, separate entity from the beginning and always >has been. Israel cannot mean one thing one place and another >another place. Otherwise the "all Israel will be saved" in Romans >and various places throughout the Tanakh is meaningless. > To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com From: Michael Detwiler Subject: Re: The Bride (The Church or Israel)? Remy, You must be able to distinguish between different persons in the view of HaShem. My views are as follows, and I can support them scripturally. 1. The nation of Israel - seperate and distinct from all other nations, always, except in the last day when there will be a "New Jerusalem." 2. The gentile nations - seperate and distinct from Israel, always, no difference between any of the gentile nations, they are all the same. 3.The "unsaved" Jew - seperate and distinct, and HaShem will deal with in a uniquely different manner than the unsaved Gentile. 4.The unsaved Gentile - again, another situation, distinct from the unsaved Jew, and HaShem will deal with in a different manner. 5.The believing Jew and believing Gentile - One in the eyes of HaShem, see Ephesians 2. Michael ******************************************************************* > >From: Robo Remy >To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com >Subject: Re: The Bride (The Church or Israel)? > >Eddie - > >I STRONGLY CHALLENGE YOU to produce ONE single scripture in the >entire Tanakh or B'rit Hadashah that equates Israel with the Church. >Israel is a distinct, separate entity from the beginning and always >has been. > >By the way - every single cult in the world, starting with the Roman >cult, and ending with the modern cults like Jehovah's witnesses, >believes that IT is Israel. We had more hope for you. >Congratulations. You have now entered into the official realm of the >cults. I suggest you re-examine your doctrine: Gentiles are not >second class. They are just not and never will be Jews OR Israel. >Period. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Remy > From: Delwin Lester To: <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com> Subject: Re: The Bride (The Church or Israel)? Sir, In loving kindess, I pray you will allow the words of the Most High to correct you. Romans 2: 25 Circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So, if those who are uncircumcised keep the requirements of the law, will not their uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 Then those who are physically uncircumcised but keep the law will condemn you that have the written code and circumcision but break the law. 28 For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. 29 Rather, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart -- it is spiritual and not literal. Such a person receives praise not from others but from God. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Delwin ****************************************************************** From: Norm & Annie Schaaf To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Subject: The Bride Eddie- We appreciated your teaching and response to Remy concerning the "bride". I would only add Romans 2:28-29. It's not a matter of pedigree, it's a heart condition. And as Goyim graciously grafted in we aren't wannabe's nor are we replacing Israel, we simply have now become (part of) Israel. Norm and Annie Schaaf ************************************************************************ From: Deborah Jensen To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Subject: Re: The Bride (The Church or Israel)? Dear Remy, You said that the church is NOT Israel. You did not say if you believed that the church, believers of Yeshua HaMashiach are grafted into Israel. Grafted into the Root, Rom 11:17 and Through Christ have become partakers of the covenants of promise and are now included in the commonwealth of Israel Eph2:12-13. I am trying to understand what you are saying Remy, Do you believe the Gentiles have been Grafted into Israel. But that the Church has not become Israel. Are you saying that being a Jew is a blood thing? Being a Gentile is a blood thing? Please explain your beliefs on this subject I would love to hear what they are. I see what Eddie's are but not what yours are. Thanks Deb Jensen ******************************************************************* From: Mark R. Ensign To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Subject: Re: The Bride (The Church or Israel)? Shalom, Eddie. Thank you for your excellent response to Remy's charges. It is one of your best pieces, a real keeper in the mail box. Those are grave charges Remy brings against those who love the Lord, the God of Avraham, Yitzchak and Ya'akov, and who may be their descendants without being Jews. I'm saddened that such charges are arising more frequently from Messianic Jewish brethren out of a false pride in being Jewish and thus seeing as second-class brethren those who are also descendants of the Fathers of the Faith, physically or spiritually. Surely in these last days the whole House of Israel, the children of Ya'akov (both physical and spiritual descendants) are being regathered to be united before Hashem. Only He knows how many of us are actually physical descendants of Ya'akov/Israel but I'm convinced the numbers are many time the number of Jews in the world today. So we should be even more motivated to study our Hebraic (not just Jewish) heritage, especially the Word of our Lord, both Tanakh and Brit Chadashah, in preparation for the family reunion that is beginning to take place. May you and all your readers who seek the Lord in Ruach (spirit) and Emet (truth) be blessed by Hashem in all the ways in which you walk before Him. Shalom b'shem Yeshua, Mark ********************************************************************** From: Pastor Ed Sterling To: <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com> Subject: Re: The Bride (The Church or Israel)? A great answer to Remy's question. My prayers are for both of you, because the human race is from one blood, one nation (Acts 17:26). An act only God our Creator could do, yet there is controversy about race. In the Messiah Yeshua, the Creator has created anew, and yet there is controversy and misunderstanding. Eddie you are a teacher, set apart for the work of Yeshua. We who labor with God among His flock are often misunderstood. I encourage you to be strong and couragous in the Spirit of Yeshua. I encourage all who may disagree with any teaching or statements to look only to G-d for His wisdom and council. We have many counselors, but many lack wisdom because the have not stood before G-d and received His counsel therefore they are false (Jer.23:16-22). I am looking and awaiting for the true children/believers to stand and embrace each other in the name of Yeshua Jew and non-Jew. A people filled with the agape of Yeshua, until the world is filled with the glory of the Yeshua as the waters cover the sea. This is my prayer and expectation. We must transend the current conditions and embrace Yeshua and one another until only one man, the man Christ/yeshua is seen. Ed, A Brother Who Loves All People Despite Beliefs That Are Different ************************************************************************ From: Alan Kowaleski To: <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com> Subject: Re: The Bride (The Church or Israel)? Thank you Eddie for sharing such depths of HaShem's truth. And thank you for all the work of bringing it to us, for many of us read, but fail to tie together because we come short of the brilliance of the Tanach. In human weakness we become tired. You are our researcher and editor. Todah Raba, Achi. BShem Yeshua, Adonaino Alan *********************************************************************** From: Mia Huffman To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Subject: Re: The Bride (The Church or Israel)? Shalom, I could not agree with you more Eddie. Esther **************************************************************** From: Luana Fabry To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Subject: Re: The Bride (The Church or Israel)? heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com wrote: > From: Robo Remy > To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com > Subject: Re: The Bride (The Church or Israel)? > > Eddie - > I STRONGLY CHALLENGE YOU to produce ONE single scripture in the > entire Tanakh or B'rit Hadashah that equates Israel with the > Church..... If I could respond to this: The Church is NOT Israel. There is no "Church" AND "Israel". There is only Israel. God only started ONE thing. EVERY Gentile who follows the God of Israel and keeps His Torah becomes a part of the "Household of Israel". "And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant - these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer." Isaiah 56:6,7. Luana Fabry ********************************************************************** From: Linda Krueger To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Subject: Re: The Bride (The Church or Israel)? Eddie, Thank you for your wonderful patience in sharing what God's Word has to say about the "oneness" of believers in the Messiah. For far too long there have been walls of division between Jew and Gentile, between denominations within the church, and between Messianic believers and "plain vanilla" Christians. We all know who it is that desires to divide and conquer the Body of Christ -- Satan. All of us need to look to the Messiah, not man or our own hearts, in order to live in a way that would please and edify Him. God has a purpose for each one of us. Where, when and how we fulfill that purpose is up to Him -- whether that be in a Messianic congregation or in a church. I have known many Gentile believers who attend Messianic congregations and many Jewish believers who attend churches. Why? Because each feels that that is where God has placed them for His purposes. The problems start when we judge for ourselves where and how a person should worship based solely upon their "natural" heritage. Psalm 61:5 states, "For You, O God, have heard my vows; You have given me the heritage of those who fear, revere, and honor Your name." Our spiritual heritage comes from God Himself. Why shortchange ourselves by trying to second guess Him when there is richness beyond imagining waiting for us in His will? One quick note: If a child is adopted into a family, that child becomes a legal heir with all the rights, priviledges and responsibilities of any natural offspring that family may also have. No distinction is made between the siblings. I feel twice blessed in that I know what it is to be adopted in the natural, and in the spirit as a Jewish believer in the Messiah! May you all be abundantly blessed! Linda ******************************************************************* From: Cari White To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Subject: Re: The Bride (The Church or Israel)? Eddie, My heart greatly rejoice at your attitude in responding to Remy. Praise G-d for the pure and unthreatened heart of a man who knows what he believes and can give reason. Thank you Abba Father that you have given such a man to teach your children! Amen. I have discovered just recently how much the evil one has stolen from the true Word of G-d. Cults are based on Astrology, too, but that doesnt mean when the Bible speaks of stars and moon that anyone who looks to the stars and moon are acting as a cult! There are SO many things that we are afraid to speak of because misconceptions (intentional or otherwise) have made certain words or concepts to be "tabu". Let us not allow this to go on! Believers in Yeshua ha Mashiach should not allow themselves to be robbed of the fulness that G-d intended us to possess! We have grown afraid to say anything about the Heavens being a sign to us, that we have God in us, and that we and Israel are one and equal, because of fear at being equated to cult practice. ALL CULTS HAVE A BASIS IN TRUTH. They stole it from G-d! Once I realized that...I was free of fear. I just wanted to thank you and support your work, as the Spirit in me witnesses to me that it is true and just. By the way, I read your two books. I enjoyed them very much and really appreciate your taking the time to sign them to me and my husband personally. I pray HIS strength and continuing approval and support upon your ministry. In Yeshua, Shalom, Cari White, Amarillo, TX ****************************************************************** From: Ed & Judy Clark To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Subject: Re: The Bride (The Church or Israel)? Dear Eddie: You make us proud! Proud to be of one family. Thank you for your work and your message. God's word is truth and it is the truth that sets us free. I am not a Jew by birth but I have a circumcised heart by a far better covenant; and I know that because of the natural branch, that I am grafted in, Praise God! and I know that HaShem predestined me to adoption as a son (in my case, daughter) by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will! and lastly, I know that the greatest commandment is love and that we are to love one another even as He has loved us. Is not our God a God of great and never-ending love, of mercy and loving kindness and compassion and forgiveness? He loves the Jew with a burning passion (how awesome) but he loves the non Jew with the same kind of passion, for He is not willing that any should perish! Can't we just love one another as He has called us to do? if for nothing else than by obedience to His word?! I am so thankful that I am adopted into the household of faith. I am grateful to my spiritual father Abraham, but I am eternally grateful to my Heavenly Father and for the precious gift and blood of His son, my Savior, a Jew, Christ Jesus the Messiah. I personally look forward to the day of the Lord's return when I can spend eternity in His presence and in learning in greater and better detail, with all understanding, the rich inheritance that I have in the whole family of God! I pray that your heart would be open, Remy, and that you would embrace the truth and in doing so, will be set free. If we love the same God, and receive the same Gospel, can we not love each other the same? I love having you for my brethren Remy and I hope to know you in heaven. Eph 4 calls us to walk in unity. To walk worthy of the calling with which we were called. To endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Does it not say that there is one body and one Spirit, just as you (we) were called in one hope of our calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, and through all, and in all? We must lay down our differences for the sake of the Gospel, Remy. We can and must learn to love the entire family of God in this lifetime, as we know it, in spite of our geneology or should I say for the sake of it! How rich in family we truly are; and Praise His Holy Name!, for in Heaven we will have no differences, we will all be the same---sons and daughters of the Living G-d! Let it be in the earth even as it is in heaven! Now may you be blessed for your belief in Messiah as Lord, and may you abide in Christ and walk in His peace, and serve in His love, and receive His grace upon your life. As for you dear brother Eddie, may you and your ministry be blessed and continue in strength and in truth, in unity, and in touching the lives of so many. Thank you for your service in Yeshua HaMashiach. In Messiah, Judy ******************************************************************** From: Peggy Jones To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Subject: Re: The Bride (The Church or Israel)? Eddie, Remy and the rest of my wonderful family.... God has made each of us individuals made to worship together. I agree wholeheartedly with Eddie's view. I also can also see the underlying feelings that Remy is having. Rest well in the fact that we are each loved the way that we are and for who we are. G-d is not a respecter of peoples but a respector and guide of the heart. If we turn towards him we have no need of being jealous or suspisious of each other. These feelings have no place within the believer. No matter where we are in knowledge or lineage Our Loving Lord is right there with his arms open wide. We each must meet our brother in the same way showing this same love. The Holy Spirit is the only one who reveals truth. Man can only present it in a way that is supported by scripture and study with an open mind. This is Eddie's goal, this is what the newsgroup was destined for. It was pre-ordained and has been overseen by the ONE above. I love Eddie and know where HE is coming from. His book is a hard one to read for the average Christian. It brings home truths that we know but have not been taught in the church. Basic truths that our Older Brothers have known from Mt. Sinai. Thank you Remy for your heritage and people without you we would not have what we hold most dear to our hearts. We Thank G-d for bringing you to us. Thank G-d for Eddie who is willing to go out on a limb for the purpose of showing us the truth set in an atmosphere that does not condemn. It is a blessing to be able to see both sides and to seek what is being taught. IN HIM pj ************************************************************************ Subject: The Bride (The Church or Israel)? From: Tony and Linda Larsen To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com Thank you Eddie for your insightful writing on this subject. While I do not agree entirely with what you said, I think one of the real issues at stake here is the cross and the practical outworking of it. When we come to Christ, we come to die to our wants, desires, preferences, geneology...et al. I find it interesting that the main words thrown around in these circles are the words "messianic, christian", whereas the word that was most used in the bible, over a hundred times, is the word disciple. In todays christian (or messianic) world, one can be a christian or messianic but not be a disciple. But in the bible, it is not possible. Jesus said If you want to be his Disciple you must take up a cross. He did not say "But if you ony want to be a christian or messianic, fall right in. I say this in sadness and dismay at our current situation. The human carnage left by the Catholics and our Bible belt brothers to the south have me hiding my face in shame when I try to share Jesus with Jewish people. And to my brothers in Christ who proudly proclaim their Jewish heritage, I need to say that Jesus didnt think it was such a wise thing to do. Somehow he saw it as testifying against yourselves that you are descendants of those who killed the prophets. I am dismayed at the attempt to divide the Lords body into Jewish groups and Genitle groups. Yet, have we not allowed the same kind of division for the past 1800 years? Baptists, Lutherans, Pentecostals? Shame on us. This is merely the fruit of our tolerance for division. The Lord help us. Tony Larsen ************************************************************************