>
> From:  Nicole Ellis
> To:       heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
> Subject: ancestors the past
>
> Hi,
>
> I hear a lot of talk about "praying for our dead ancestors", for the
> sins they have committed.  I hear about prayer walks and even the
> practice of "memory healing" or "theophostics".  These are occuring
> in the church.  I don't find these biblical or am I missing
> something? I would like to hear your point of view especially since
> you are Messianic.
>
> Sincerely interested,
>
> Nicole Ellis
>
> >From Eddie:
> **************
>
>         Nicole,
>
>        Praying for the dead is clearly an unbiblical practice. In
> Deuteronomy 18:9-14 it is written:
>
> "When you are come into the land which the Lord thy God gives you,
> you shall not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
> There shall not be found among you anyone that makes his son or his
> daughter to pass through the fire, or that uses divination or an
> observer of times, or an enchanter or a witch. Or a charmer, or a
> consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For
> all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and
> because of these abominations the Lord thy God does drive them out
> before thee. Thou shall be perfect (spiritually mature) with the
> Lord thy God. For these nations which you possess, hearkened (shema)
> unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the
> Lord thy God has not suffered thee so to do".
>
> Saul committed this sin in (I Samuel 28:3-20). In I Samuel 28:3-8 it
> is written:
>
> "Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel lamented for him, and buried
> him in Ramah, even in his own city.  And Saul had put away those
> that had familiar spirits and the wizards out of the land.  And the
> Philistines gathered themselves together and came and pitched in
> Shunem: and Saul  gathered all Israel together, and they pitched in
> Gilboa. And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid
> and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul inquired of the Lord,
> the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by
> prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that
> hath a familiar spirt, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And
> his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that has a
> familiar spirit at Endor. And Saul disguised himself, and put on
> other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to
> the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the
> familiar spirit, and bring him up, who I shall name unto thee"
>
>                                                     Eddie Chumney
>
>

From:          Nathan Adelman
Subject:       Re: Praying for the dead

I agree with your response here, but I don't think you addressed the
question.  I believe the question concerned praying FOR, not praying
TO, the dead.  If I misunderstand, I apologize!

Nathan Adelman

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From:          Samuel del Coso Román
To:            heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject:       Re: Praying for the dead


Eddie,

I understand that Nicole is not asking help about "evoking, talking,
consulting the dead" rather "praying for the dead" as the Catholics
do. Is it the same? I know that some people  in Israel do it as well,
even today. Any light on that?

Greetings from Sefarad,

Samuel

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To:            heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
From:          Alan Kowaleski
To:            <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Subject:       Re: Praying for the dead


   Eddie,

I think Nicole is asking about praying FOR the dead and not to
them. This is a corporate practice at each mass in the catholic church
I was brought up in. There is also the practice of donating money to
certain masses held to be for the repose of the souls of dead
relatives or parishioners. The practice is as old as the early church
and I wonder what biblical roots may be a precedent for it. Thank you.
Alan

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From:          James Love
Subject:       Re: Praying for the dead
To:            heb_roots_chr@geocities.com

I certainly do not believe in the practice, but what about the reference in
the Apocrypha that Catholics and others use to cite the practice of praying for
the dead?  I believe it is in Maccabees.

James Love

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From:          Glen Wolinsky
To:            heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject:       Re: Praying for the dead

This is a standard practice in the Mormon Church.  The reason Mormons
do extensive geneoloy research is that they believe that the dead can
be baptized and saved by proxy.  Basically, if you have a dead
relative that was not saved, you can be baptized for them and they are
saved.


>From Eddie:
**************

         The Bible is very clear about this subject. In Hebrew 10:27
it is written:

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the
judgement"

           In Ezekiel 18:20 it is written:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the
iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of
the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and
the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him"

        The scripture is very clear that we are PERSONALLY
RESPONSIBLE for our actions.

        The Catholic church teaches that there is a heaven, hell and
a purgatory and we are able by our good deeds and faithfulness to the
Catholic church and it's teachings are able to have our loved ones
leave purgatory and enter into heaven.

          This practice and thought is also associated with
indulgences. This teachings specifies that if you pay enough
indulgences to the church, then this could affect the eternity
destiny of your diseased loved ones. Certain popes in the Middle ages
told their faithful that if you killed a Jew and did a favor for God
that this would increase your chances of improving the eternity
destiny of your loved ones. Are these teaching Biblical? Hardly.

            The following information comes from a former Catholic
who sites these beliefs in some of the official documents of the
Catholic church and compares this with the Word of God. This info is
found at:

             http://www.chick.com/reading/books/160/160_23.asp


                                          PURGATORY

                   Catholicism teaches that after death, some people
are sent to a place called purgatory for further purification before
entering heaven:

                          "All who die in God's grace and friendship,
                          but still imperfectly purified, are indeed
                          assured of their eternal salvation; but
                          after death they undergo purification, so as
                          to achieve the holiness necessary to enter
                          the joy of heaven. " Pg. 2658, #1030

                          "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this
                          final purification of the elect..." Pg.
                          268-269, #1031

     Did this critical doctrine come from God, or is it another
tradition of men? Here' s your answer, right out of the Catechism:

                          "The Church formulated her doctrine of faith
                          on Purgatory especially at the Councils of
                          Florence and Trent." Pg. 268-269, #1031

     Is it unreasonable to ask where a group of men got
their information about the afterlife to formulate such a doctrine?

     Precious Roman Catholic, if you are praying for loved ones you
believe are in purgatory, you need to be aware that God didn't tell
you they were there, a group of religious leaders did:

                          "But at the present time some of his
                          disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have
                          died and are being purified, while still
                          others are in glory..." Pg. 249, #954


                            IF YOU SUFFER, IT'S NOT A GIFT

            What makes this doctrine even more disturbing is
that the Bible never indicates such a place exists. Neither does the
Bible teach that further purification after death is necessary to
earn going to heaven. On the contrary, God's Word declares
that salvation is a free gift:

                          "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift
                          of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ
                          our Lord." Romans 6:23

                          "...by the righteousness of one (Jesus) the
                          free gift came upon all men unto
                          justification of life." Romans 5:18

      Would an honest, loving God offer you eternal life as a free
gift - then make you suffer to earn it - then lie about it in His Word?

                          "For by grace are ye saved through faith;
                          and that not of yourselves: it is the gift
                          of God:" Ephesians 2:8

       If the Bible is to be believed, then there is no need for
further purification for those who die in Christ. They have already
been justified by Jesus:

                          "Much more then, being now justified by his
                          blood, we shall be saved from wrath through
                          him." Romans 5:9

                          "Being justified freely by his grace through
                          the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"
                          Romans 3:24

                   The Apostle Paul drives home this same point:

                          "And such were some of you: but ye are
                          washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are
                          justified in the name of the Lord Jesus..."
                          1 Corinthians 6:11


                   True Christians are already purified because Jesus
                   put away all sin on the cross:

                          "...but now once in the end of the world
                          hath he (Jesus) appeared to put away sin by
                          the sacrifice of himself." Hebrews 9:26


            God's children are not required to suffer for
salvation because they have been bought and paid for:

                          "For ye are bought with a price: therefore
                          glorify God in your body, and in your
                          spirit, which are God's." 1 Corinthians 6:20

                   The price was the blood of Jesus Christ:

                          "...feed the church of God, which he (Jesus)
                          hath purchased with his own blood." Acts
                          20:28


                                         CONCLUSION

         If the Bible is so clear on this subject, why did the
Catholic church institute a doctrine that has persuaded faithful
members to give multiplied millions of dollars to the church to have
prayers and Masses said on behalf of departed loved ones?
You must answer that for yourself.  Now, at least you know that the
doctrine of purgatory was hatched from the minds of mortal men:

                          "There is therefore now no condemnation to
                          them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not
                          after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
                          Romans 8:1


            The next article on indulgences also comes from this
Website:


            http://www.chick.com/reading/books/160/160_29.asp


                                         INDULGENCES

     Through indulgences, the sins of Roman Catholics, both those who
are alive and those in Purgatory, can supposedly be forgiven:

                          "Through indulgences the faithful can obtain
                          the remission of temporal punishment
                          resulting from sin for themselves and also
                          for the souls in Purgatory." Pg. 374, #1498

                   Here is the Catechism's definition of an
                   indulgence:

                    "An indulgence is a remission before God of
                     the temporal punishment due to sins whose
                     guilt has already been forgiven, which the
                     faithful Christian who is duly disposed
                     gains under certain prescribed conditions
                     through the action of the Church which, as
                     the minister of redemption, dispenses and
                     applies with authority the treasury of the
                     satisfactions of Christ and the saints." Pg.
                     370, #1471


          Here, the water gets deep. Space does not permit a full
explanation of indulgences. Suffice it to say that they are a
complicated system of good works. It should also be mentioned that
every rule regarding indulgences is a tradition of men. Not one can
be found in God's Word.


                                      CATEGORIES OF SINS?

                          "To understand this doctrine (Indulgences)
                          and practice of the Church, it is necessary
                          to understand that sin has a double
                          consequence." Pg. 370, #1472

                   But the Bible consistently reveals that all sin has
                   the same consequence:

                   "For the wages of sin is death..." Romans  6:23

                    "Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth
                     forth sin: and sin, when it is finished,
                     bringeth forth death." James 1:15


    The final result of sin is always death, no matter how minor we
may think a particular sin is. Catholics try to pay for sins through
indulgences, but Christ already paid for every sin:

                          "For I delivered unto you first of all that
                          which I also received, how that Christ died
                          for our sins according to the scriptures;" 1
                          Corinthians 15:3


      While it is true that God does want His children to perform
good works, those works are not a requirement for salvation, they are
a result of salvation. Paul teaches:

                          "For by grace are ye saved through faith;
                          and that not of yourselves: it is the gift
                          of God: Not of works, lest any man should
                          boast. For we are his workmanship, created
                          in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God
                          hath before ordained that we should walk in
                          them." Ephesians 2:8, 10

      Once one is saved by grace, good works should follow. But good
works are never a requirement for salvation. Neither are they a
requirement for forgiveness of sins after salvation.

       The New Testament bulges with examples of Jesus forgiving
sins, but He never demanded good works as a condition of forgiveness.


                           CAN THE LIVING HELP THE DEAD?

     Catholicism also purports that indulgences help those who have
already died:

                          "Since the faithful departed now being
                          purified are also members of the same
                          communion of saints, one way we can help
                          them is to obtain indulgences for them, so
                          that the temporal punishments due for their
                          sins may be remitted." Pg. 371-372, #1479


    Here is another load of man-made traditions. You will never find
any of this taught in the Word of God. As we have mentioned
previously, the time to have your sins remitted is while you are still
alive.


                                        THREE THEMES


                   In this doctrine, three recurring themes come to
                   the surface again:

                   1. Another divine attribute of Jesus is minimized.
                   The Bible declares that only Christ's work can
                   bring about the forgiveness of sins. Catholicism,
                   though, claims that sins can be forgiven through
                   the good works of any ordinary Catholic.

                   2. Indulgences keep people in bondage to the
                   Catholic church. Rather than going to God for
                   forgiveness, Catholics must toil and strive,
                   performing good deeds through the Catholic church
                   for forgiveness of their sins.

                   It is noteworthy to ponder that the "good works" of
                   Catholicism differ from the good works of the
                   Bible. Biblical good works are deeds done for other
                   people, while Catholicism' s good works revolve
                   primarily around performing rituals of the church
                   (Masses, saying rosaries, Catholic prayers,
                   lighting candles, etc.). God intended good works to
                   benefit others, not to bring people into bondage to
                   a church.

                   3. Indulgences are a form of spiritual blackmail,
                   forcing members to remain faithful to the church,
                   so they can someday help their loved ones reach
                   heaven.


                                        CONCLUSION

                   Is this system of good works from God? Read what
                   God records in His Holy Word on the subject, then
                   decide for yourself:

                    "Not by works of righteousness which we have
                     done, but according to his mercy he saved
                     us..." Titus 3:5


>From Eddie:
**************

         I pray that this clarifies the answer to the question and
clears up this issue.  Bible believing following of Messiah should
not pray to the dead, for the dead or consult the dead.


**********************************************************************

From:          Petra
To:            heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject:       Re: Praying for the dead

Dear brother Eddie

Thank you so much for clearing up the "praying for the dead". I have
known all along that this is unbiblical and it hurts so much to see so
many fall into this deceiving trap. Our salvation depends upon our
decision during our lifetime, perhaps even the seconds before death,
but not after death. Once more thank you and be most blessed!

Petra

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