From: "Hebraic.Heritage.Newsgroup@hydra.host4u.net"
<Hebraic.Heritage.Newsgroup@hydra.host4u.net>
To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>, Hebraic Heritage
Newsgroup 2 <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Praying for the dead
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 17:25:19 -0800
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From: Nicole Ellis
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Praying for the dead
Hi again!
I did mean praying for the dead. The reasons for this have to do with
generational curses. If your great grandfather died of alcoholism and
it has been passed on for 2 or 3 generations then the original person
who brought on the curse needs to be prayed for and addressed.
Now I agree that certain things are passed on but that we can only
address the living. There are biblical examples of people praying for
the evil their fathers brought on. However, shouldn't we pray against
the "evil or curse" passed down and not the for actual people who
brought passed them on?
What is your perspective on such things as generational curses and
prayer?
I believe too many Christians are praying against such but in the form
of psycological regression and labeling it theophostics and such. After
reading all of the input here it even sounds like a combo of Catholism
and psycology!!
I have read some practices of theophostics online. People simply
regress to an unfavorable memory and come to terms with it. What does
this mean? It means altering your memory! Our past is part of us like
it or not and makes us who we are even today and God uses it for the
good no matter how bad the memory. But our enemy would rather have us
focus on who we used to be. He lies to us and tells us who we are is
based "more" on what we have already done. this also is what prayer for
dead people actually involves too. We are more then our genetic
predisposion and past.
All this is a subtle form of Deuteronomy 18v9. Religions as well as
Christianity are combining into some wierd thing. I mean Christians are
putting Christianity and stuff like channeling together! These things
have nothing in common at all! The Bible does tell us that in the last
days people will not endure "sound doctrine" we are seeing this prophecy
in effect. Let us listen so intensely to our Messiah that we cannot
even hear the voice of the Wicked One....
Grace and Peace to you all
Nicole Ellis
***********************************************************************
From: Paul Bergh
To: <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Subject: Ancestors the Past
Eddie,
I appreciate that you have stated that you end this conversation
of praying to the dead, I am taking liberty just to comment something
and that is that the prayer walks done and Identificational repentance
should not be confused with prayers to the dead. Identificational
repentance is biblical, just read Dan. 9, Ezra 9, and Neh. 9 and see
how they confessed the sins of their fathers and kings and priests,
they have identified with if it was their sins by saying we have
sinned against you o God and repent for the sins their fathers have
done. I do not know if Nicole was referring to this type of actions
which were carried out by Christians and are still being done. I just
wanted to say be careful not to criticize identificational repentance,
because it is not praying to the dead but repenting to break to curse
that this sins had brought and it prayers to GOD through the blood of
Jesus.
Paul Bergh
******************************************************************
From: Steve Zimmerman
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Praying for the dead
In a message dated 98-08-28 04:35:56 EDT, you write:
<< I hear about prayer walks and even the
> practice of "memory healing" or "theophostics". These are
occuring
> in the church. >>
This is a totally different issue than praying for the dead. It's
more about confessing the sins of those who no longer can, to break
"generational" curses or strongholds that Satan may have gotten in
past generations which still affect us today. That opens a different
can of worms, but it is not speaking TO the dead or even praying for
them, per se, but praying to release ourselves from the effects of
what they have done. There may be precedents for this in Daniel and
Nehemiah. But it invites further discussion. Please offer comments.
Steve Zimmerman
*******************************************************************
From: Michael Radney
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Praying for the dead
Dear Eddie,
I'm in agreement with what you wrote regarding praying to the dead.
However, there is something I've learned that is sometimes mistaken
for this practice. That is, praying about the sin's of the fathers.
The purpose here is to break the cycle of "generational" sin for
individuals in this generation. Many of the prophets are recorded as
doing this. So, in reality we aren't praying for the dead, for they
do not benefit. And yet, the scripture where G-d declares that He
would visit the sins of the father's to the fourth generation, can be
broken as we not only pray, but then according to John 20:23, forgive
them with the authority He's given us in Jesus' Name.
I hope you will clarify this. Many of us have experienced profound
healing in this way.
Blessings,
Michael Radney
*****************************************************************
>From Eddie:
**************
It is Biblical to pray and confess the sins of our
physical forefathers and our spiritual forefathers. Daniel did this
same thing in Daniel 9.
By confession of the sins of our forefathers, repentance
from these sins in our lives and faith in the blood of
Yeshua/Jesus to take away these sins, generational curses can be
broken. This is different from praying to the dead or for the dead
(to help them in some way) which is unbiblical.
***********************************************************************
From: Sharon Jurist
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Praying for the dead
Dear Eddie,
If you can stand one more inquiry, there is a verse in Rabbi Saul's
writings that speaks about immersion (baptism) for the dead. This
verse is used by Mormons to justify their practice of this. 1 Cor.
15:29 says "Were it otherwise, what would the people accomplish who
are immersed on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not actually
raised, why are people immersed for them?" I know the context of this
passage is the resurrection of the dead and that Moshiach has been
raised. I also know that nowhere else in the Bible can you find any
grounds for such a practice. However, no one has addressed this verse.
Can you (or anyone else) shine some light on this verse that is used
to SUPPORT baptism for the dead?
Sharon
***********************************************************************
From: Ching Family
To: <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Praying for the dead
Dear Eddie:
In view of all that has been said below, please clarify 1COR 15:29 -
"Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the
dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?" and
1PETER 4:6 - "For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even
to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as
men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God."
Thank you,
Cherie Ching
******************************************************************
>From Eddie:
**************
There was an ancient Jewish custom of WASHING the bodies of a
dead person as a means of proclaiming the belief in the immortality
of the soul and the resurrection of the dead.
The subject of I Corinthians 15 is the resurrection of the
dead.
In I Corinthians 15:16-19, 23 it is written:
"For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ
be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they
also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished ... But every man
in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are
Christ's at his coming"
So, the context of Paul's message is the resurrection of the
dead. He says that if Christ is not risen then we will not be risen.
But since Christ is risen from the dead then we will rise from
the dead also.
In I Corinthians 15:25-26 it is written:
"For he must reign till he has put all enemies under his feet. The
last enemy that shall be destroyed is death"
In Romans 6:23, it says that the wages of sin is death. Death
is our enemy because sin is our enemy. Paul says that if Christ
overcame sin and rose from the dead then we are able to overcome the
enemy of death by rising from the dead also and having resurrected
bodies through our faith in Messiah.
In I Corinthians 15:27-29 tells that when death is destroyed,
we will rule and reign with Messiah forever.
"For he has put all things under his feet (even death which is our
enemy ... verse 26) ... and when all tings shall be subdued unto him,
then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all
things under him, that God may be all in all. Else what shall they do
which are baptized (WASHED) for the dead, if the dead rise not at
all?"
The CONTEXT of I Corinthians 15 is the RESURRECTION. Paul is
saying in I Corinthians 15:29, you baptize (WASH) the dead because
you believe in the resurrection of the dead. In this, he was
referring to the ancient Jewish custom of WASHING the dead which was
done based upon a belief in the resurrection of the dead.
Therefore, Paul was explaining the BELIEF associated with the Jewish
CUSTOM of WASHING the bodies of the dead ---- the resurrection of the
dead ---- will happen to those who believe in Messiah because
Messiah was the firstfruits of all those who will rise from the
dead.
The CONTEXT of I Corinthians 15 is NOT SALVATION.
I Corinthians 15:29 is an example of taking a misapplication of the
translation of the word in Greek based upon the Hebrew custom and
applying our 20th century Western Christianity definition of baptism
when we read the text.
The Mormons have built an entire church doctrine from the
verse based upon a misunderstanding and mistranslation of this verse
based upon the Hebraic concept behind it.
Based upon the Hebraic background of this custom, the
verse is better translated as WASHING of the dead rather than
baptizing the dead.
After we have died, it is too late to make amends for our
life on this earth. In Hebrews 9:27 it is written:
"And it is appointed unto men once to die but after this the
judgement"
In conclusion, by understanding our Hebraic roots and by understanding
what the ENTIRE Bible (not taking one verse out of context) teaches
about salvation and baptism, we can understand that I Corinthians
15:29 is talking about the ancient Jewish custom of WASHING the dead
not baptizing them unto salvation.
***********************************************************************
To educate, train and equip for study both the Jew and
Non-Jew in the Rich Hebraic Heritage of our Faith.
Please visit the Hebraic Roots Global Network
Web Site located at:
http://www.hebroots.org/
HEBRAIC ROOTS SEMINAR
Hebraic Heritage Ministries is having a Hebraic roots seminar in
Houston, Texas, September 11-13, 1998. For more info, see the
Website:
http://www.hebroots.org/houston.html
Eddie Chumney
Hebraic Heritage Ministries Int'l