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To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>, Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup 2 <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Wine/Grapejuice in Biblical Times / For Passover
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 16:16:46 -0800
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From: Jim McIntosh
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Wine/Grapejuice in Biblical Times / For Passover

>
> To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
> From: Levi Avriel ben Avram
> Subject: Re: Wine in Biblical times / Passover
>
> Dear Eddie:
>
> I would like to comment on this issue concerning wine in Biblical
> times and especially Passover. I have lost close friends over this
> (unfortunately), but God began to work on me and instruct me in this
> (Ps. 32:8). The Scriptures have the answer as they always do.
>
> Numbers 6:1-4: We can all rationalize our behavior because we don't
> want to be submissive unto Yeshua. Therefore, we tend to create
> crutches to justify our fleshly desires. I used to be "the" wine
> drinker/sipper and I could rationalize that, then I just drank wine
> socially and at special occasions, and I could rationalize that. Then
> the Holy Spirit began to work in my life and show me that being Holy
> unto God sets one free from trying to rationalize things (bondage).
> However, if you are not lead by Rauch HaKodesh you end up with
> legalism. Legalism is a tool of satan to seek and destroy. That is
> what's happening in Jan and Derek's situation. In their situation,
> they should refrain from drinking wine when their friend with them.
> Why, because it is causing each to stumble into sin.
>
> Yeshua was a Nazarene and I believe He was totally separated unto God
> the Father. Not partaking wine is was not a personal self-discipline
> but rather an act of total devotion to God. Remember, the Nazarene vow
> governed three areas of his or her life: diet, appearance, and
> association.
>
> What's interesting though, is I have gained more respect now for my
> decision to NOT drink wine or any other fermented drink. My conviction
> is a witness especially to those who want to make sure my actions
> match my beliefs.
>
> Shalom,
> Levi Avriel ben Avram
>
>

I just can't let this one pass. The last writer said that Yeshua was a
Nazarene, that much is true. BUT...there is no "law of the Nazarene".
A Nazarene is a person from Nazareth, the name of a town. There is a
law of the Nazarite, but I find that now where in the Scripture is
Yeshua said to be under the law of the Nazarite, expecially in light of
what he said contrasting Himself with John the Baptizer in Matt.
11:18-19. He says that "The Son of man came eating and drinking, and
they say, behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber". I this this
statement of his rules out being under the "Law of the Nazarite".

Mary McIntosh, AK

***********************************************************************

From: Monty Warren
To: <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Yeshua a Nazarene/Wine/Grapejuice in Biblical Times
/ For Passover

To: Levi Avriel ben Avram
From: Monty Warren

Matthaios 2:23 states that Yeshua was a Nazarene because his family
settled in a city worded Nazareth. There is no place in scripture
which states that Yeshua took a vow of the Nazarite.

In fact there are many indications that atleast during his ministry he
was not under a vow of the Nazarite.

First and foremost he entered often into the temple and according to
the Nazarite vow and historical sages and even Shaul (1 Cor 11:14,
Acts21:24) it was shameful for a man to enter the temple with long
hair and the vow was to be broken at the door of the temple by cutting
the hair and placing it under the peace offering and burnt in the
fire. (Num 6:18) Therefore it is clear Yeshua could not have had long
hair when he entered the temple or he would have been arrested for
cause.

In addition it was against the Torah for a person whom had taken the
vow of a Nazarite to make himself unclean for any person not even his
immediate family. Even if someone were to accidentally die suddenly
near him he would be defiled if he had taken the vow of a Nazarite.
Then after his 7day period of cleansing he would be required to cut
his hair and bring two turtledoves or two pigeons to the priest at the
door of the tabernacle or temple. One for his sin offering and one
for his burnt offering to make atonement. (Num 6:10-11) Because
according to the Torah he had and anyone who was under the vow of
seperation of the Nazarite would have sinned by making himself unclean
during his vow, even if the sin was unintentional as when someone died
near him suddenly it was still a sin! We know that scriptures
explicitly teach us that Yeshua had no sin, therefore he could not
have been under the vow of the Nazarite when he went to the place of
the dead(graveyard) where El Azar was laid. He would have come in
close proximity to many dead bodies laying in the tombs. That is
unless we would propose that El Azar was laid in a new tomb far away
from any other tomb.

In addition as it relates to the wine, if Yeshua had been under the
vow of a Nazarite during his ministry He would not have been able to
drink any wine of any type or He would have broken the Torah. (Num
6:3-4)

Shalom,
Monty Warren

**********************************************************************

From: Vlad
Subject: Re: Wine/Grapejuice in Biblical Times / For Passover
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com

>
>From: Messianic Rabbi Yehoshua M Othniel
>To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
>Subject: Re: Wine in Biblical times / Passover
>
>
> Shabbat Shalom Eddie,
>
> I've been following your discussion on the issue of wine and the
>Passover and I wanted to add some comments which will not only support
>what you've been sharing but will perhaps clarify some issues for your
>readers.
>
> You are correct regarding the Hebrew words Yayin and Tirosh. Yayin
>(effervescing), is used approximately 83 out of 138 times to indicate
>fermented grape juice which does have an intoxicating nature. This
>fact is made quite plain from Scripture as you have shown by quoting
>numerous texts in your discussion.
>
> Tirosh ("must") is freshly pressed grape juice and is often rendered
>new wine or sweet wine. Again you referenced several passages in your
>discussion on the subject so I will not bother to repeat them here.
>
> Both Yayin and Tirosh are made in the exact same way. Tirosh may
>have a slightly intoxicating effect, this is borne out by a single
>text found in Hos. 4:11, "Harlotry, wine (Yayin), and new wine,
>(Tirosh) take away the understanding.
>
> From the New Testament we see a further indication that Tirosh may
>indeed have a intoxicating effect. In Acts 2:13 the Greek word used
>is Gleuchos ("must"), which is rendered new or sweet wine. The charge
>was made against the disciples of Jesus that they had become drunk
>from drinking sweet wine. A charge which the Apostle Peter firmly
>denied.
>
> I mentioned that both Yayin and Tirosh were made in the same way,
>this is true to an extent, even today. The issue arose regarding
>kosher wine and wine that is kosher for Passover. What is the
>difference?
>
> My father-in-law makes wine as a hobby. He will take pure fresh
>grape juice and pour it into a 5 gal. container. He then adds a small
>quantity of yeast which begins the firmentation process. When the
>firmentation process is completed, my father-in-law then adds a
>chemical agent which halts the firmentation process by killing off the
>yeast. A clarification agent is then added to the new wine which
>causes the sediment to settle to the bottom of the bottle and the wine
>is then poured and strained into bottles and corked. The newly filled
>bottles are then placed in a cool dark place and allowed to age. This
>process is basically the same for kosher wine making with some
>variations on account of Rabbinic law.
>
> Wine that is kosher for Passover is made pretty much in the same
>manner as described above, but with one very important difference. No
>additional yeast is added to the juice. The large vats of grape
>juice, (sweet, new wine or Tirosh) are exposed to the air which
>contains yeast particles. Natural yeast can also be found on the
>skins of the grapes and this adds to that which is in the air. The
>yeast settles on the juice and in the juice and begins to digest the
>natural sugars contained in the sweet wine. This digestion of sugar by
>the yeast is what we call firmentation, and the end result is alcohol.
>
>The more alcohol the less sweet the wine. When the wine has reached
>the point of firmentation desired, the firmentation process is halted
>by either adding a natural chemical or by heat. If the firmentation
>process were left alone you'd end up with wine vinegar! Cheap wine in
>the days of Y'shua was wine that had turned sour, meaning that it
>tasted like vinegar in that it had been allowed to turn.
>
> So, while Yayin was known for its intoxicating effect, Tirosh also
>could contain small amounts of alcohol depending on how long it had
>been allowed to sit. Fresh grape juice if allowed to sit long enough
>will start to turn just as all natural Apple Cider will turn hard if
>left alone. Commercial grape juice does not turn because it's heated
>which kills off the natural yeast.
>
> Now let's turn to a more important point that some of your readers
>have over looked. At Passover we are commanded to remove the Chametz
>or leven from our homes. No one can get all the leven out of his/her
>home, it's impossible. Yeast is in the air and tends to settle on the
>surfaces of our dwellings and even on us. So unless you live your
>life in a high level "Clean Room" you can never really be leven free.
>
> Ha'Shem commanded that we remove the chametz from our homes and so
>we do. Leavened bread is put out, yeast, baking powder, etc. This is
>a picture, we do the best we can and trust The Holy One; blessed is
>He, to do the rest. Once we've removed the chametz from our homes we
>offer a special prayer to Ha'Shem that if we missed any leven, that He
>will not hold it against us but will make it as if it were not leven.
>There is just so much that we as human beings can do to draw near to
>God. We must trust God to meet us and draw us in the rest of the way.
>This is the essence of faith for both Jew and the non-Jew.
>
> Now let me share one last insight. Remember how I mentioned that my
>father-in-law adds yeast to the tirosh? The act of adding yeast is a
>picture of our sin. In B'raesheet, (Genesis) chapter 1, verse 31 it
>reads, "And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was
>very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth
>day."
>
> God does not need our help to improve upon His creation, it's fine
>just the way it was. However when Man decides that he can add to what
>G-d has made, there is trouble a plenty! Adam and Chavah decided they
>could improve themselves by eating of the Tree of Knowledge of Good &
>Evil. Abraham and Sarah's urging tried to help God by Abraham
>fathering a child, Ishmael, with Hagar. We are still reaping the
>curse for that one.
>
> My point is that when Man adds to the things of God the result is
>intoxication or the clouding of our senses; I am speaking of the
>spiritual senses here. When we can't hear clearly the Ruach, we often
>fall into sin, just as a drunk will likely fall into a ditch!
>
> Wine, both Yayin and Tirosh are not evil. In Yashua's day, both
>types of wine were diluted with water before being drunk which helped
>to prevent the intoxicating effects. I forget where I saw this
>reference, but I once read that one of our sages was quoted as saying,
> "He who does not take water with his wine is a Barbarian!" Scripture
>tells us to not drink to excess, to be drunk with wine. We are told
>to avoid strong drink, the Hebrew word for strong drink is "Shekar".
>
> In conclusion let me say this to the couple who's friendship has
>been strained by this wine issue. Whenever I hold a public service, I
>do not serve wine, but commercially made kosher grape juice, (Tirosh).
>Privately at home with my family I serve Yayin, but in small amounts
>and never to excess. Either is acceptable according to Jewish Law so
>don't let yourself become legalistic over this issue and destroy a
>friendship.
>
> I hope my comments have helped.
>
> Chag samaeach,
>
> Rabbi O.
>

I want to commend Rabbi O for his insitefull (as usual) reply. I too
make wine and just for the record the method Eddie stated was used to
prevent fermentation would work even for 9 months. Once the wine has
reached 14% alochol content all yeast would die as the alochol becomes
poison to them in that concentration. This fact makes it possible for
alocholic wines to have also been Kosher even at HIGH alochol
contents. ALL leaven would be removed because all would be killed.
Now if you say that the fermentation process itself makes it unkosher
I could see the validity of your arguement. As for me and my house we
will probably still use kosher wines (alocholic) for those who choose
not to so be it. This becomes a matter of interpratation rather than
expressly stated in Torah and as no positive determination can be made
should be left up to the judgement of the individual.

Shalom alechim

Vlad

******************************************************************

From: Jerry Healan
Subject: Re: Wine/Grapejuice in Biblical Times / For Passover
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com

Eddie,

I have a tendency to agree with Rabbi O. But Yahshua is a priest
after the order of Melchizedek and Melchizedek was shown to be bringing forth
bread and wine (yayin) (Gen. 14:18). Yahshua was of the tribe of Judah
of whom was prophesied, "...he washed his garments in wine (yayin),
and his clothes in the blood of grapes: his eyes shall be red with
wine (yayin)...," Gen. 29:11-12.

The drink offering which was added to the sacrifices was yayin (Lev.
10:9, 23:14). One of the interesting things concerning yayin is its
gematria, it 70. Yahshua sent out 70 of His disciples by twos (Lk.
10:1-17).

Jerry Healan

**********************************************************************

From: Yaffa Carter
To: <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Wine/Grapejuice in Biblical Times / For Passover

Dear Rabbi Chumney,

I read with great interest the series of notes concerning Wine/Grape
Juice in Biblical Times. I would like to add my comments as well to
this discussion. In considering Tiyrosh a Non - Alcolic beverage, you
are correct, as it is not yet fermented; however, this Non - Fermented
Wine/Grape Juice can absolutely give someone a "High" or "Euphoric"
feeling due to the extremely high fructose levels in the grape juice.

>From a Medical standpoint, high fructose carbohydrates can increase
the blood sugars so quickly that it can "mimic" the effects of
alcohol; causing a person to experience a state of Drunken Stupor or
Intoxication. If taken in excess the New Wine can cause nausea,
vomiting and also a "Hangover" with a severe headache or migraine
headache, as well as other hangover symptoms. One final comment: I
believe that "New Wine" is at it's sweetest peak just before the
fermentation process begins; it's all a matter of timing and the
skills of the Wine maker. I desire with all of my heart to partake of
our Messiah's New Wine, with Him at: The Wedding Supper of The Lamb.
Without doubt, this will be for me the Sweetest moment in my Eternal
Life with Him! Baruch HaShem!

Blessings to You, Your Household and Ministry,

Shalom
Yaffa Carter.

*******************************************************************

From: David Robinson
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Wine/Grapejuice in Biblical Times / For Passover

My Question is this, is DeAlcoholized wine Kosher?

David

***********************************************************************

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