From:          pdy <Paula.Yulish@NAU.EDU>
Subject:       RE: Orthodox Jews and the Messianic Redemption
To:             "Paula.Yulish" <Paula.Yulish@NAU.EDU>, heb_roots_chr@hebroots.org
Cc:            baruchflm <baruchflm@mindspring.com>, britam <britam@netvision.net.il>,
               housedavid <housedavid@aol.com>, ravmoshe <ravmoshe@bellsouth.net>

>===== Original Message From heb_roots_chr@hebroots.org =====
>From:          pdy <Paula.Yulish@NAU.EDU>
>Subject:       FWD: Do Orthodox Jews believe in Replacement Theology?
>To:            Hebrew Roots <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
>Cc:            britam@netvision.net.il
>
>>
>>Eddie,
>>
>>Interesting article by an Orthodox Jew who essentially believes in
traditional
>>British Israelism that the 10 Lost tribes of Israel went to Northern Europe
>>and America among other places.
>>
>
>     Stephen,
>
>    With all due respect, your statement above is NOT correct. This
>wasn't an article by *AN* Orthodox Jew who essentially believes ...
>this is a fundamental and foundational belief of Orthodox Judaism.
>Orthodox Jews pray 3 times a day for the Messianic Redemption. It is
>on of the 18 benedictions. It is also one of the 13 articles of
>Jewish faith. It is official Orthodox Jewish Halacha. This is NOT an
>isolated belief of *AN* Orthodox Jew named Yair Davidy. For example,
>Rebbe Schneerson wrote several books on the subject. They are
>entitled, "From Exile to Redemption I and II", "Anticipating the
>Redemption I and II" and "I Await His Coming Everyday". I would
>encourage you to read these books and glean the insights of the
>Orthodox regarding THIS issue.
>
>Eddie,
>With all due respect to you, I believe your ideas are not only erronious but
>are condescending. Brother, I went to Cheder for four years and was Bar
>Mitzvah in an Orthodox Shul. How dare you question my knowledge of Jewish
>Orthodoxy.
>

    If you are Orthodox or have an Orthodox upbringing then why don't
you understand that:

#1) Orthodox Jews pray 3 times a day for the Messinaic Redemption
#2) Belief in the Messianic Redemption is the 12th of the 13 articles
      of Jewish faith
#3) The belief in the Messianic Redemption is official Orthodox Jewish
      halacha as taught by Rabbi Eliezer

   Not knowing or not understanding this is like saying I am a
Christian and belief that Jesus is Messiah and don't know John 3:16.

>
>I think that you have twisted these beliefs to suit your own fancy.
>

    Nope. This is official Orthodox Jewish belief and Halacha. I have
not invented this belief. The prophets wrote about it before I was
even born. Orthodox Jewish and the Talmudic beliefs in the Messianic
Redemption existed before I was even born.

>
>Maybe Mr. Davidy has helped you, but just because he is Jewish or Orthodox for
>that matter does not necessarily make him right.
>

    I knew this Orthodox Jewish belief and teaching before I even
knew that Yair Davidy existed on the planet. What makes Yair Davidy
and Orthodox Jews correct on THIS issue is that the Torah and the
prophets also teach us about the belief in the Messianic Redemption.
The Torah and the prophets are our guidelines on this and on all
matters pertaining to the Kingdom of the God of Israel.

>
>We Jews are known for having
>more opinions than people arguing. I have had a long time running debate with
>Orthodox Rabbis about my acceptance of Yeshua Hamashaich. This has been a
>personal, often painful process for me as my family and friends have rejected
>me. When my youngest son, Noah, was to be Bar Mitzvah in 1992 in an Orthodox
>Shul I was told that I could not go to the Bimah for an aliyah because I was
>an apostate.
>

    Yes, these facts are sad but true. You can be Jewish and believe
ANYTHING and still be considered a Jew EXCEPT if you belief in the
Jewish Messiah.

>
.I conferred with an Orthodox Rabbi friend who headed Chabad( I
>had been a community leader in the Jewish community and knew all the Rabbis).
>He told me that once a Jew always a Jew.
>

    I agree

>
>Even if I became the Pope I would
>still be a Jew. Recently, I have been talking with an orthodox rabbi, Shraga
>Simmons, at Aish Hatorah in Jerusalem. Initially he told me that I was no
>longer a Jew but was now a Christian. I argued with him for months and he
>finally said, okay Stephen you are still a Jew but you are still going to
>spend eternity in hell in boiling excrement for believing in Jesus.
>

    Looks like he is wrong on this issue based upon what is written
in the Torah and the prophets. It is also a contradiction based upon
the Orthodox teaching that "All Jews have a place in the World to
Come".

>
>That is
>exactly what the Talmud says is the fate of Jesus- in Hell in burning
>excrement(b.Gittin 56b-57a).
>

     This violates what is written in the Torah and the Prophets.

>
>What I am saying is that once a Jew always a Jew.
>

     Agreed

>
>Even if one assimilates or converts or whatever, you are still a Jew.
>

    If he was born a Jew then true.

>
> The
>Talmud says(b.Sanhedrin 44a)Even if Israel sins he is still israel. R.Abba
>explained that a willow standing among willows is still named a willow and
>people call it a willow. Talmudic commentator Maharsha stated that this meant
>even if one transgressed the entire Torah. So even if one assimilates one is
>still a Jew. Recent DNA studies have shown that Jewish people all over the
>world possess the same genetic markers. Thus non practicing or apostate Jews
>are still Jews not "assimilated Israelites".
>

     If they are born Jews then this is true.

    However, the house of Israel (Northern Kingdom) was NEVER Jewish.
They were Israelites. It is the house of Judah who are regarded as Jews.

>
>    The teaching that the Ten Lost Tribes migrated to Europe and
>American among other places is NOT the DEFINITION of "Christian
>British Israelism". While those who have taught British Israelism
>have correctly understood HISTORY regarding this issue, the
>HISTORICAL fact of the migration of the Ten Lost Tribes, realizing
>the HISTORICAL fact and teaching the historical fact is NOT the
>DEFINITON of British Israelism. The teachings of British Israelism
>which were espoused by the World Wide Church of God and Herbert W.
>Armstrong taught the correct HISTORY BUT they also taught an
>erroneous doctrine that Britain and the USA were the "New Israel" and
>the prophecies about the Northern Kingdom were
>fulfilled (past tense) in the "New Israel". Therefore, they taught
>(because of their interpretation of the fulfillment of the prophecy)
>that the Jewish people according to the flesh do not have a role to
>play in the end-time plan of God. The doctrine of British Israelism
>teaches "replacement  theology".  The DOCTRINAL conclusion of the
>HISTORICAL FACT is the DEFINITION of British Israelism. Orthodox Jews
>do NOT teach and believe the DOCTRINES of British Israelism. After
>agreeing to much of the HISTORICAL fact, the CONCLUSIONS of Orthodox
>Judaism are MUCH different than those taught by Herbert W. Armstrong
>and the World Wide Church of God. Orthodox Jews DO believe
>that they have a role to play in the end time plan of God. Orthodox
>Jews DON'T see that the prophecies regarding the Northern Kingdom
>were fulfilled (past tense) or were finalized through Britain or the
>USA but that the prophecies regarding the reunification of the Ten Lost
Tribes
>wiht Judah are yet a FUTURE event when the Ten Lost Tribes will unite
>with the house of Judah and return to the land of Israel in the end of
>days. Therefore, what Orthodox Jews teach and believe about the
>Messianic Redemption is RADICALLY different from British Israelism
>and their conclusions are 100% different. Therefore, there can be no
>valid basis or association of British Israelism doctrines regarding
>how they see the fulfillment of the prophecies regarding the Ten Lost
>Tribes with the Orthodox Jewish belief in the Messianic Redemption IF
>you study BOTH beliefs.
>
>Excuse me
>

      Excuse what? What I stated is true.

>
>    Several weeks ago, I heard a Messianic Jewish person speak on Bible
>prophecy and the end of days while I was in NY. He stated in his
>message that the belief in the Ten Lost Tribes reuniting in the end
>of days with Judah is not Biblical and is heresy. After his message,
>I was able to have dinner with him. So I asked him, "Do you KNOW what
>Orthodox Jews believe about the end of days?". He looked at me for a
>few seconds and said, 'No'. I said, 'Do you want to know?". He looked
>at me for a few seconds thought about it and said well, OK, I will
>listen to you.
>
>I then showed him material written by Orthodox Jews stating that the
>Ten Lost Tribes will reunite with Judah in the end of days. He cut me
>off and said that this was unbiblical and he didn't want to talk
>about it anymore.
>
>So, do you see, Stephen? There are a LARGE number of Messianic Jews who
>are going around blowing shofars, wearing Tallits etc and have NO
>KNOWLEDGE of their [Orthodox] "Jewish roots". No wonder they
>(MJAA) reject the Messianic Redemption and the restoration of both
>houses of Israel in the land of Israel in the end of days (Ezekiel
>37:15-28).  Messianic Jews know more about
>evangelical CHRISTIAN dispensational end-time Bible prophecy than
>what they know about how Orthodox Jews see the end of days. It would
>be one thing to know what Orthodox Jews believe about the end of days
>and reject it but MOST Messianic Jews and Messianic Jewish leaders do
>NOT even KNOW what Orthodox Jews believe about the end of days.
>Furthermore, on this issue, the Orthodox Jews are BIBLICALLY correct
>if one studies what was written in the prophets.
>
>Remember, Eddie, that the Talmud says that Jesus is in Hell in burning
>excrement.
>

     I agree that this is not so but if the Talmud says that Moshe
was used by God to lead the children of Israel out of Egypt does this
make it not so even if the Talmud says what you said it said about
Jesus?

>
>You are too philo semitic for your own good. In your zeal to
>embrace Jewish Orthodoxy you have become blind to its rejection of its own
>Meshiach.
>

     I have no desire to embrace Jewish Orthodoxy. If I did, I would
convert to Orthodox Judaism. I only have a desire to embrace what is
written in the Torah and the Prophets. Of course, I understand that
Orthodox Jews don't accept Jesus as Messiah but does that make
EVERYTHING that they believe  as unbiblical? You seem to think so.

>
>Put quite simply, Orthodox Jews say that King Messiah CANNOT come
>unless the Ten Lost Tribes reunite with the house of Judah in the
>land of Israel in the end of days. When this event happens, Orthodox
>Jews will be looking for King Messiah and the beginning of the
>Messianic Era.
>
>That will be after the Rapture of the Believers and during the Tribulation.
>

       Sure it will be during the Tribulation because both houses of
Israel will become restored and reunited with each other during the
Tribulation. Jeremiah 30:1-7 tells us that during JACOB'S (not
JUDAH's) trouble that BOTH the house of Israel AND the house of Judah
will return to the land of Israel and Ezekiel 37:15-28 tells us that
it will be upon the "mountains of Israel". Your belief in the
pre-trib rapture is based upon the foundation of evangelical
Christian dispensationalism teaching (age of law / age of grace)
which is unbiblical. BOTH houses of Israel will go through the
tribulation because the tribulation is called JACOB = house of Israel
(Christianity) AND the house of Judah (Judaism) trouble and NOT just
JUDAH's (house of Judah's) trouble.

>
>Many will be fooled by the coming of the antiChrist at this time. The Orthodox
>Jews call this horrible endtimes King, Armilus. He will declare himself to be
>God in the rebuilt Temple... sorry that is another story.
>

     Orthodox Jews AREN'T being fooled by the "covenant of death"
(Isaiah 28:14-15). They don't accept giving Arafat a PLO state, the
West Bank or dividing of Jerusalem. It is the secular who are being
fooled into accepting these "anti-Christ" proposals.

>
>> If a Gentile said this it is called
>>Replacement theology and is heresy. If an Orthodox Jew(Sen. Lieberman calls
>>himself one also?!) says it, all of you Hebrew Roots Christians, jump
>>on the bandwagon. Wow! we all may be physical Israel as well as Spiritual
>>Israel. Give it a rest!
>>
>
>    What Orthodox Jews and what Sen. Leiberman says makes no
>difference unless the Torah and the Prophets also say it. What Hebrew
>Roots Christians says make no difference unless the Torah and the
>Prophets also say it. However, examining the evidence (what the Torah
>and the Prophets say on this issue), the data supports the claim that
>the Orthodox Jews are indeed Biblically correct and there IS a
>Messianic Redemption / Ingathering of the Exiles / the Restoration of
>both houses of Israel in the end of days when the Ten Lost Tribes
>will reunite with Judah and return to the land of Israel in the end
>of days upon the advent of the Messianic Era. (Ezekiel 37:15-28).
>
>
>correct but those Tribes if indeed they are Lost instead of assimilated back
>into Judah as many believe, will be Jews(physical jews) not so called
>assimilated Israelites i.e. Christians.
>

     Physical Jews come from the house of Judah not from the house of
Israel. Those physically born of the house of Israel are ISRAELITES
and not Jews (physically born of Judah).

    I Peter 2:9-10 links "Gentile Christians" with the judgment of
the Northern Kingdom and so does Romans 9:24-25. There is a CLEAR
link in the NT that believers in Jesus as Messiah are linked to the
judgment of the Northern Kingdom of Israel in Hosea 1. Paul's
explanation of the olive tree in Romans 11 comes from BOTH the house
of Israel AND the house of Judah being called an olive tree whose
branches were broken in Jeremiah 11:14-16.

>
>"Give it rest" as you say? NOT according to the prophets. Here what
>Jeremiah spoke about this subject in Jeremiah 31:7:
>
>"For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob,
>and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye,
>praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people,
>the remnant of Israel."
>
>We are COMMANDED to SHOUT and PUBLISH this message to the nations.
>This is the heart of Brit-Am and this is the heart of Hebraic
>Heritage Ministries Int'l. TOGETHER those who believe in the
>Messianic Redemption will shout, publish and proclaim the Messianic
>Redemption / Ingathering of the Exiles / Restoration of both houses
>of Israel to the ends of the earth. This is OUR Biblical mandate.
>
>>
>>Notice that the Orthodox Jew does not speak of Jesus. He wants to reconcile
>>the traditional Jews of Judah(state of Israel and Jews around world) with
the
>>so called assimilated "Jews of the 10 lost tribes of Isarel" throughout the
>>Christian world.
>>
>
>    Not so. The Ten Lost Tribes are NOT Jews. They are assimilated
>Israelites who have lost their heritage and have not embraced Torah.
>Orthodox Jews teach that the Ten Lost Tribes are NOT Jews BUT they
>will reunite with Judah and embrace the Torah when the reunification
>takes place in the end of days upon the advent of the Messianic Era.
>
>Once again you are wrong. once a Jew always a Jew. remember.
>

    Yes, I agree. But also remember that once an Israelite then
always an Israelite.

>
>This will also be
>too late. They will have gone through the Tribulation and 2/3 will have been
>killed.
>

    So will Christians (house of Israel) have to go through the
tribulation also because the tribulation is JACOB'S trouble and NOT
JUDAH's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7).

>
> Jews need Jesus now not during the Messainic era otherwise they will
>perish during upcoming tribulation.(Jacobs trouble)
>

    The Bible teaches that the house of Judah will accept Yeshua /
Jesus as Messiah in Hosea 5:15 because it says in their affliction
(the tribulation), they will seek my face. AT THE SAME TIME, Ephraim
will acknowledge his error in his ways as well --- the rejection of
Torah. THEY have to acknowledge their offense (Hosea 5:15, 6:4).

>>
>> He wants to do that in a purely Jewish context, so that the
>>leaders of the Christian Western world will realize their Jewish identity.
>>
>
>    A "Christian Western world" CANNOT be "Jewish". However, they can
>be an assimilated people who are ISRAELITE (but not Jewish).
>
>wrong!
>

     Biblically TRUE!

>>
>>That is backwards. Jews need to recognize that Jesus Christ is their Lord
> and
>>Savior not to make Christians realize that they are really Jews.
>>
>
>     Orthodox Jews do NOT and are AGAINST trying to make Christians
>"Jews". They are in favor of trying to identify who are the
>assimilated ISRAELITES (from the Northern Kingdom) who are NOT Jews
>(from the Southern Kingdom) but who will reunite with Judah in the
>end of days.
>
>>
>
>My point is that we should be trying to make Orthodox Jews into Believers.
>otherwise they will perish.
>

      OK but we Christians (Ephraim) need to repent for calling the
Torah "a strange thing" (Hosea 8:12). Messiah will NOT return (Hosea
5:15 = John 14:3) until THEY (that includes Ephraim repenting for
calling the Torah a strange thing) acknowledge their offense (Hosea
5:15, 6:4). To God, this is VERY IMPORTANT. Rachel is weeping for her
children until Joseph (Ephraim) repents for departing from Torah
(Jeremiah 31:15-20) and Jesus is waiting for the prodical son
(Ephraim) Luke 15 to return home. The excitement of the father when
Ephraim (Christianity) returns home from "feeding on swine" and
begins to embrace the Torah is the WEDDING of the Messiah (the advent
of the Messianic Era).

>
>>See what I
>>mean? As Paul said in Ephesians 2 we are all one new man.
>>
>
>     Correct. We NEED to realize that we are members of the SAME
>family. House of Jacob = house of Israel + house of Judah. You can be
>native born into the family or you can be a sojourner or adopted
>(grafted into) the family. BOTH the native born and the sojourner or
>the one who is adopted (grafted) are regarded as EQUAL family members
>or as you stated it from Ephesians 2 --- "one new man".
>
>> same family but you Christains are not Jews.

>>Sure it is important
>> for Christians to recognize the Jewish Roots of Christianity(although I am
>>not convinced of this 10 Lost Tribes thesis)
>>
>
>    Probably because you being a Messianic Jew have no knowledge of your
>[Orthodox] Jewish roots.  I would encourage you since you are Jewish
>to EMBRACE your Hebraic heritage. MOST Messianic Jews are far removed
>from their [Orthodox] Jewish roots and their Jewish heritage. For this
reason,
>they reject the Messianic Redemption in the end of days even though
>this is the CENTRAL theme of the writings of the prophets.
>
>
>Eddie, with all due respect, I have forgotten more about my Judaism than you
>will ever know.
>

      Even if true, you should be more humble. God resists the proud
but gives grace to the humble. I do agree with you that you have
forgotten your Judaism namely what Jews pray 3 times a day, one of
the 13 articles of Jewish faith and official Orthodox Jewish Halacha
belief in the Messianic Redemption as also explained by Rambam in the
laws of the Kings. Hopefully, you will "awaken out of your sleep"
(Zechariah 4) and take notice what is the Menorah and the two olives
trees and begin to understand and teach the Messianic redemption to
others. This is our Biblical mandate.

>
>    The "Jewish roots" of Christianity is realizing that we are
>linked with the Northern Kingdom of Israel and the covenant made at
>Mount Sinai. The Elijah message in the end of days is ... remember ye
>the Torah of Moses at Mount Horeb ...
>
>>
>>but it is more important for Jews
>>to recognize Jesus.
>>
>
>    Orthodox Jews will NEVER recognize Jesus if they don't see how
>Jesus is linked with the Messianic Redemption. The DISCIPLES of Jesus
>DID have an understanding of the Messianic Redemption because they
>asked Jesus if HE was going to "restore the Kingdom to Israel" at
>this time (Acts 1:6). The "restoring of the Kingdom to Israel" is the
>Messianic Redemption. The MODERN disciples of Jesus do NOT know what
>the disciples of Jesus knew because they are removed from their
>Hebraic heritage.

>Rambam (Maimonides) in the law of the Kings regarding what to expect
>concerning the coming of King Messiah wrote that Deut 30:1-5
>speaks of the Messianic Redemption and those who deny this or deny
>that this refers to the Messianic Redemption denies all what was
>written in the Torah and the Prophets. According to Rambam, one of
>the reasons stated that Jesus could not be the Messiah is because the
>reuniting of the Ten Lost Tribes with the tribe of Judah did NOT
>happen in the first century or any other time in history. Is this
>statement and belief by Rambam correct that IF we deny that Deut
>30:1-5 speaks of the Messianic Redemption that we are denying all
>what was written in the Torah and the Prophets? IF you understand the
>teaching of the Two Houses of Israel and their prophetic restoration
>(Ezekiel 37:15-28), the answer is obviously YES.
>
>But you say, so who cares what Rambam writes and beliefs because he
>doesn't believe that Jesus is Messiah. Just because Rambam and
>Orthodox Jews don't believe that Jesus is Messiah means that
>EVERYTHING that they have written and said about
>the Bible is in error? Even Messianic Jews have flaws in their
>doctrine and interprations of the scriptures. If Rambam doesn't
>believe that Jesus is Messiah yet Rambam states that 2 + 2 = 4 does
>that mean that 2 + 2 does not equal 4?
>
>
>obviously not. You are creating a red herring to try and make your point. The
>bottom line, Eddie, is that these Orthodox Jews need their sin bearer Yeshua
>Hamashiach or they will forever be lost and perishing. Your attempt to give
>them a pass until He returns is only a ticket to hell.
>

     You are putting words in my mouth that I did not say.

>
>If you really love them
>, as I do, then you will tell them the truth. As Yeshua said, I am the way and
>the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but by me!John 14:6
>

    And if you really love Yeshua, you will teach other Messianic
Jews and non-Jewish believers to KEEP the commandments of Yeshua
(John 14:15) which is the Torah. The TORAH is truth (Psalm 119:142).
 
If you really love your Orthodox brethren (and Messiah), you will
explain how the promise that God made to Abraham (Genesis 12:3) and
the promise that God made to Him that his seed would be grafted or
intermingled (ve nivrecu) into ALL families of the earth and that the
rest of the Torah and the prophets explain how this promise of God
came to pass and how this promise is linked to the first and second
coming of the Messiah and the mystery of the grafting of the olive
tree (Romans 11) and  WHY the disciples asked the Messiah WHEN He
would "restore the Kingdom to Israel" (Acts 1:6) which is a reference
to the fulfillment of the Messianic Redemption. If you really love
your Orthodox brethren (and Messiah), you will explain to them
that the Apostle Paul preached and taught the Messianic Redemption in
Acts 26:7-8. If you really love your Orthodox brethren (and Messiah),
you will explain to them how the story of Joseph revealing Himself to
His brethren is linked with the Messianic Redemption (Ezekiel
37:15-28). Do you love them enough to tell them the truth and explain
to them how Ephraim was intermingled among the Gentiles and how
Ephraim (Christianity) calls the Torah a strange thing? I hope that
you do. Remember while the house of Joseph identifies with THE
shepherd of Israel, you MUST acknowledge to Judah that the sceptor
has not and will not depart from Judah until Shiloh come.


>> This Orthodox Jew
>>
>
>     You mean what Orthodox Jews pray three times a day, what is one
>of the 13 principles of Jewish faith and what is official Jewish
>halacha NOT what "one" Orthodox Jew believes.
>
>>
>>, even if correct, is still lost and
>>perishing.
>>
>
>    "Even if he is correct" means that he / they is / are correct. Let's
>acknowledge that Orthodox Judaism is correct on this issue if they
>are indeed correct when compared to what is written in the Torah and
>the Prophets on this issue. THEN the reconciliation process can
>BEGIN.
>
>>
>>All of his effort to prove that the Khazars were Jews(a thesis
>>rejected by Jewish Scholars)
>>
>
>    You mean assimilated Israelites and NOT Jews. Jewish scholars
>DON'T say that the Khazars were "Jews".
>
>>
>>and that the Kings of England, Scotland and the
>>Founding Fathers were really Jews
>>
>
>    IMPOSSIBLE! If their mother and father are not Jewish then they
>are NOT Jews. But they COULD be assimilated Israelites.
>
>>
>>is only to glorify Judaism not the Lord.
>>See what I mean?
>>
>
>      No. According to the prophets, the restoration and
>reunification WILL give glory to the God of Israel because when this
>event happens the prophets say that God's name will once again be
>sanctified among the nations. (Ezekiel 36-39). The sanctification of
>God's name DOES bring glory to the God of Israel.
>
>>
>>And I am speaking as a Jewish believer. Jews need to
>>recognize Christ more than Christians need to be found to be Jews.
>>
>>Stephen Yulish Ph.D.
>>Leader
>>Chayim Chadashim Fellowship
>>Flagstaff, AZ
>>
>
>     Once again, Orthodox Jews DISCOURAGE Christians from converting
>to Judaism. They actively teach and preach against this. So, Orthodox
>Jews and Yair Davidy does NOT desire for Christians to convert to
>Judaism. So, they have no desire and do not advocate it or promote
>it.
>
>
>
>I know that but what I am saying is that we should encourage them to recognize
>their Lord and savior Yeshua!
>

    You can't encourage them to recognize Yeshua until they
understand who their brother is and their brother repents for
departing from Torah. Messianic Jews aren't attempting to show
Orthodox Jews who their brother Ephraim is so they will continue to
see Jewish Messiah as the pagan messiah of an anti-Torah religion
which doesn't follow the writings of the Torah or the prophets.

>
>   MORE? Not according to the prophets. In Hosea 5:15 it says that
>He (the Messiah ... John 14:3) will return to His place until THEY
>acknowledge their offense. Who is the THEY? THEY is Ephraim and Judah
>as mentioned on Hosea 6:4. Ephraim NOT acknowledging his offense is
>causing Messiah to NOT return. What does Ephraim have to acknowledge
>and recognize? Ephraim needs to repent for departing from Torah,
>realize who his brother is (Judah), repent to Judah for vexing him
>THEN Ephraim and Judah will be able to reconcile with each other and
>the Messianic Redemption can take place and King Messiah can come
>and usher in the Messianic Era.
>
>    You claim that Orthodox Jews are blinded about who is Messiah?
>Messianic Jews and assimilated Israelites from the Ten Lost Tribes
>are blinded to their heritage, that they have departed from Torah and
>the understanding of the Messianic Redemption.
>
>
>
>We are all frail sinful weak beings who need Yeshua Hamashaich, Jesus the
>Christ! God Bless, Stephen Yulish
>

    Stephen,

   Read Hosea 5:15 - 6:14, THEY have to acknowledge their offense NOT
just Judah. What are you doing to help Ephraim acknowledge his
offense so that Judah can recognize who his brother is so that
reconciliation and understanding can take place?

>
>PS Eddie why did you not post these discussions for all of HHMI??
>

      It is my intent to do so as these discussions are helpful to
teach those on the newsgroup about the Messianic redemption and how
Messianic Jews DON'T believe in the Messianic redemption and what was
written by the prophets on this subject. I only try to send out 10
articles at a time.

In order to understand that Ephraim (Northern Kingdom NOT Jews) were
prophecied to be assimilated into the nations, please consider these
scriptures and then see that what the Talmud says about this subject
is correct that the assimilated house of Israel are walking around
today being called by Messianic Jews and the secular world as being
"Gentiles".

"Ephraim is smitten" -says Hosea 9:16-17: ".....My God will cast them
away , because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be
wanderers among the nations"

In Hosea 7:8 it says "Ephraim, he hath  mixed  himself among the
people...." that is how  the KJ translates it.  The actual Hebrew is
"Ephraim be-Amim Hue Yitbolel..." which literally means  "Ephraim will
be assimilated amongst the peoples....".

Jeremiah  (3:8).  says- "Backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I
had put her away and given her a bill of divorce" . Likewise the
Prophet Hosea, referring to the Lost Tribes of the Kingdom of Israel,
echoed, "Ye are not my people and I will not be your God," (Hosea
1:9).

 According to the Talmud (Yebamot 17a) the LOST TEN TRIBES were
legally classified as "Gentiles to all extents and purposes" -even though they
were destined to return, at the present time they have the status of
non-Jews and that is how it was prophesied their status would be.

Eddie