From: 	 heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Sent: 	 Tuesday, August 26, 1997 12:59 AM
To: 	 Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup
Subject: Commentary: Torah Codes

From:          Paula Yulish
Subject:       RE:Bible Codes
To:            heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Priority:      normal

Brothers and sisters,

Many of you are very naive concerning the so called Bible codes. 
Scripture says that we need to be discerning. I have been a member 
of the TCODE discussion group for nearly a year. This discussion 
group is made of mostly of Christians and Jews who are trying to 
replicate the Statistical Science article of 1994 by Witztum, Rips 
and rosenberg. These people are fluent in statistics and probability 
theory, computer programming and Hebrew.

Nobody has been able to replicate the results of the original 
research. That research only found the names and birth dates of 
a list of famous Jewish sages in the book of Genesis.

Someone commented that "Drosnin didn't discover the codes, others 
did". that is false. The codes that Drosnin supposedly found were 
different from the Equal letter sequences indicating the sages names. 
he found everything from JFK to Armageddon to earthquakes. That is not 
what the scientists found. he never indicated his ELS'S or the books 
he found them in. That is why the scientists have distanced themselves 
from his research. it is not scientific. The work of Yaccov Rambsel 
has also come under fire by those involved in code research. he did 
not use a computer and come up with objective findings but instead 
counted the letters manually. his findings have therefore been
classified as subjective.

I have spoken with the scientists who did the study and with orthodox 
Jews here in America who support its findings. I have been told that 
the great sages in Israel have told the scientists not to even look 
for future codes because that is divination. They were told to trust 
in Hashem.

Many Christians want so badly to believe in the codes. they want 
scientific evidence to share with their unbelieving friends and family 
and I can sympathize with that. I too have written a couple of articles 
about codes for the local paper and the university paper challenging 
people to see God's handiwork in the Bible, but I have grown increasingly 
cautious. We all need to be careful that our efforts do not backfire in 
our faces. This Drosnin subjective, unsubstantiated code findings is 
doing that to many. There are many articles on the internet including 
one by Prof. Shlomo Sternberg a mathematician at harvard please my 
brothers and sisters be discerning. test the spirits. don't be swayed
by false prophets and false doctrine.

Stephen Yulish PH.D.

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To:            heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
From:          ken_g
Subject:       Torah Codes/Josephus

Please accept my apology for the brief response to the replies to my
mesage on the Torah Codes. As Edna Ruck pointed out the Spirit reveals
the deep things of God. It would appear that Drosnin has been exposed
to it and like Scott Neil I am a bit bewildered as to how Drosnin can
continue to deny what is obvious. Yet like Suzanne Lancaster points
out it is like the play Jesus Christ Superstar that so many Christians
protested against, somehow it still had a positive impact. Perhaps we
can measure the Spirit in ourselves by the people He sends to witness
to (inverse relationship).

Still I am hoping that someone can confirm the mistranslations.
On page 56 he says it references the year 5756, it looks like 2756 a
date that may refer to Jerusalem for another reason (I have found a
reference to Jerusalem near this date). Also the translation on page
96 as computer is incorrect, I think, and might be a witness to Mr.
Drosnin if he were to recognize it.

Now on another topic, in an article I have read concerning the Codes
there is a reference to the writings of Josephus concerning the
Essenes. My book on page 478 says "There are also among them who
undertake to foretell things to come, by reading the holy books and
using several sorts of purification and being perpetually conversant
in the discourses of the prophets" yet another source says Josephus
should be translated "They had knowledge to give numerical values to
letters. Then they exchanged certain letters with other opposite
letters. Then, by a secret process of mathematical aphorisms of the
prophets, the could predict the details of the fulfillment of a Sacred
Writing". How could a person with a normal town's library confirm
which translation is more accruate?

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From:          "Edwin Acevedo"
To:            heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Subject:       The Bible Code

I just finished reading, "The Bible Code" book. An interesting read,
while the essence of the "Bible Code" message can be learned from reading
the
actual text of the Bible itself, the "code," if it turns out to be
what it claims, stands to be a valuable witness to G-d's will. In the
mean time, I'll take comfort in the knowledge and hope contained in
the "regular" text of the scriptures!

In the early 70's, it was Hal Lindsay's, Late Great Planet Earth,
which took Bible Prophesy and tied it to current events. In it, the
Soviet Union would sweep down and attack Israel. The book was so
compelling, it changed the lives of untold numbers of people. Many
Christians swore by it and believed
Jesus would return in a few short years. Now the Soviet Union doesn't
even exist...and we are still here. Then in the 80's we had Angels On
Assignment...written by the minister who talked with angels on a
regular basis...although he couldn't provide any proof except his own
testimony that it happened (also, his dog's ears would prick up
whenever they came in the door). THAT book changed lives too. Now we
have The Bible Code. I'm no scientist, and certainly no mathematician.
But if  there is one thing any reader, even the casual reader, can
take away from reading the Torah, is the continuous purpose of G-d in
history. We are continuously reminded that G-d is in control, that G-d
punishes Sin, that G-d abhors Idols, and G-d will allow No other gods
besides Himself. Yet these coded "ELS" are completely G-d-neutral. No
mention of Yahweh (G-d), or Sin, or HaSatan...no love, no hate, no
personality...just facts. Even Rips refers to this "intelligence's
"ELS" (pg. 174)...and Drosnin calls Rips "ELS"! G-d's purpose in the
Bible is to reveal Himself as the ONE TRUE G-D...there are no others
beside him. If this "ELS" does not reveal Him, they have no
purpose...and frankly, are then completely meaningless. Finally,
Drosnin informs us that the end days can be changed (pg. 177), because
that's what Isaiah 41:23 says... BACKWARDS!!!! (hey...did you know
playing Revolution

#9 backwards proves Paul McCartney died back in the 70's???) If these
#things can be changed, then they aren't prophesy anyway...they're
suggestions. G-d is on the throne...he doesn't need computers to get his
message across.

I thought it interesting that Dr. Eliyahu Rips (Orthodox), professor
of math at Hebrew University, Jerusalem, wrote a letter to Rabbi
Daniel Mechanic, of Aish HaTorah, who is a world authority on codes.
Basically he says that he does not support the conclusions of Mr.
Drosnin, although he says that the Torah codes do exist and that they
are not a mere coincidence. To get a full copy of his statement,
contact Aish Hatorah at LA@Aish.edu or 310-278-6925 (fax). Ask for a
copy of The Fax of Life, June 7, 1997 edition. You won't be able to
get it during Shabbat hours, basically Friday evening to Saturday
evening. Overall, I take this book with a grain of salt. Interesting,
but will never replace or parallel the Torah in importance. The Torah
is THE BOOK !!

Edwin Moses Acevedo
Telshe

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